Why can't Asia just get along?
I don’t read a lot of blogs these days, and the topics I write on tend to come from my own experiences rather than the internet. Here’s one blog entry on Harvard’s Global Voices Online that I have to point out, though (via Peking Duck):
Inside the Japanese Blogosphere – The Anti-Korea Wave
Also interesting:
P.S. Scheduled posting, it would seem, refers to the minimum quantity of posts you’ll see. So there might be extras, from time to time, like this one.
Very interesting links. Japan needs to fess up to its crimes in WWII, whether in China or Korea or anything else. I’m sick and tired of their whining about Hiroshima and Nagasaki! What people don’t know about is the atomic bombs actually saved lives on both sides by ending the war early. Had America gone through with its Operaton Downfall–i.e., the invasion of Japan–an estimated 250,000 to 1 million American troops would’ve died. Needless to say, far more would’ve died on the Japanese side. Personally, I’m GLAD America dropped those bombs on Japan! Cuz 1) Japan started the war and 2) the bombs in actuality saved millions of lives. These facts are something what all these whiners never talk about.
Ah, the inimitable DXC…
I couldn’t fabricate comments like yours if I wanted to. š
It’s amazing to read of the different view points. I’ve noticed in my travels that most people have the same needs: safety, food, love and humor.
Nevermind Asians, the various Chinese communities can’t even get along amongst themselves.
You know, I can understand (if not support) the Japanese ultra-nationalists. What I can’t stand are the Japanophilic Western apologists who try to defend and playdown the actions of the Japanese ultranationalists.
I still remember a webboard posting where some guy played down the fact that there was a Japanese textbook that completely omitted the Nanjing massacre and other atrocities that the Japanese committed in China by saying that it was distributed to only 2% of the student population. Jesus Christ. Can you imagine what the reaction would be if someone said that there’s nothing for the Jews, gypsies, and Jehovah’s Witnesses to get worked up about because a textbook which whitewashed the Holocaust was only distributed to 2% of the student population in Germany?
Yeah, that textbook is pretty bad, though of course, I haven’t read it. I’m curious to see how bad the CHINESE textbooks are. That’s another thing: the Chinese are always (justifiably) bitching about the Japanese whitewashing their atrocities, but come on, the Chinese themselves are masters at that!. If I could only read Chinese well, I would love to go through Chinese history books. That would be a real treat!
Have you read the book “FLY BOYS”?
This book gives alot of insight into how Asians treated each other during WWII.
Maybe there is still animosity from this?
Some people may be only exposed to propoganda. This could affect bias them as well.
I think the we’ve seen biases in the states for years. We, as Americans, still see the division in certain areas. And I believe that some people want to keep the gap from closing. Why? Because then they can empower themselves as a spokesperson and build their egos.
I’m sure there are more reasons but I’m getting hungry.
Give them time! I’m a European… after World War II, we had an abundance of animosities here. Even in the 60s, when my parents where traveling in France, they claimed to be Dutch… otherwise , many French wouldn’t even talk to them, let alone selling something to them or letting them check into a hotel. Yet, nowadays we have created a rather peaceful atmosphere around here… there are conflicts, of course, but a lot of respect in the first place.
Consider Asia to be in the early stages of this process. The vast majority of the people just didn’t have the possibility to look beyond their own national borders in the last 50 years – especially in China. They’re just starting to leave the past behind. Sure enough, there are a lot of anti-Japanese sentiments among the Chinese that I know – but at the same time a lot of genuine interest in Japanese ways and lifestyle. They could be headed in a good direction.
My first comment of a great blog which I’ve been following for a long time, by the way. Best greetings!
Sure, but the Germans were (from what I have seen) truly contrite and worked to build a peaceful Europe. You can’t exactly say that about the Japanese.
Greg said, “We, as Americans, still see the division in certain areas. And I believe that some people want to keep the gap from closing. Why? Because then they can empower themselves as a spokesperson and build their egos.”
I couldn’t agree with you more. Certain organizations and certain political parties really make me sick when they talk about equality while deliberately keeping people unequal.
Back to the topic, I know nothing about Japan, but my Chinese friends told me so much about hating Japan. Help me find something positive to balance my perspective!
>because a textbook which whitewashed the Holocaust
>was only distributed to 2% of the student population
>in Germany?
But I somehow feel sure that more than 2% of junior high students do not even read history textbook. I myself do not remember at all what was written in histroy books. How did I learned about Holocaust? I believe that it was “The Diary of Anne Frank” if my memory serves. Something must have been mentioned about Holocaust in Junior High history textbook, but I don’t remember anything.
I therefore feel that this 2% is really meaningless number. What do you think of the significance of the number?
The signifigance is that such a textbook (which whitewashes several of the greatest crimes committed in our recent era–crimes which impact the Japanese of today) is taught in any school. Would you have a problem with a Japanese history textbook which completely omitted a large and important chunk of Japanese history (such as the Meiji Restoration)? How committed to teaching the truth are you?
BTW, it’s not just textbooks. It’s stuff like this (from http://www.outpostnine.com/editorials/teacher41.html):
“Taken from the National War History Museum in Tokyo. I went through with one of my friends, and we had to laugh at just how slanted the whole thing was. Laugh, or cry over the absurdity. According to the text in the museum, the Japanese “expanded their defensive concerns” into Korea, helped “establish order and control” in China, and then were “forced into war” by the war-hungry American government. That whole Axis power thing is barely mentioned, and forget about trying to find anything that would portray the Japanese as something other than a peaceful people minding their own business in the Pacific.”
I mean, how much can you lie? How insanely biased can you get? You know, Japanese museums should start teaching that not only should Hiroshima and Nagasaki have been A-bombed, but that many other cities should have been as well because of the crimes against humanity committed by the Japanese, and that Japan should be taken over as a colony of some other contry because they are not capable of self-rule.
Well, I wouldn’t go so far as to say Japan is incapable of self-rule. They’re quite capable, certainly better than most European nations. Nor would I say Germans are “truly contrite.” I mean, the German GOVERNMENT surely is, but I’m not sure if the individual German is. Every single German I’ve talked to–granted, not a lot–have expressed extreme impatience with talking about Hitler and the Holocaust. They all say, “That was a long time ago!” Likewise, there’s a strain in German mentality that Hitler was an evil that was somehow imposed on the German people against their will when in actuality the Nazis came to power in a democracy–i.e., the German people MADE the Nazi Party the biggest in the country through elections.
Richard,
>omitted a large and important chunk of Japanese
>history (such as the Meiji Restoration)?
Well, it is your view. But my view is that omitting Meiji Restration equals to taking out the whole Sino-Japanese War, not a specific event that occurred during the war. I believe my view is fairer.
Korean junior high history texbook touches upon Vietnam War, but it only says in one sentence that South Korea participated Vietnam War. It does not mention anything about what korean soliders did in Vietnam like atrocities and rapes as bad as what the Japanese did, or even worse. 20,000 to 30,000 orphans are left behind as a result. A South Korean told me once that those were not rapes but Korean soldiers promised marrige to Vietnamees women but they just did not keep their promises, and that’s all.
No appology until quite recently. President Roh appologized to the Vietnamees for the first time. Prior to that ex-President Kim “mentioned” about it according to the korean man. Virtually no compensation except for helping school building in the areas where atrocities took place.
All these while criticizing the Japanese government for not doing enough with textbook writing, compensation, and , of course, sincere appology to who suffered.
This is how people are. This is how people teach history to kids.
Richard,
>āTaken from the National War History Museum in Tokyo.
It is a theory, a conspiracy theory. People like to talk about what they believe is the “turth.” Who killed JFK, or the Jews control the 80% of the money in the world, etc.
You say it is a national museum. Where exactly is it located in Tokyo? I tried to find the museum but Google did’nt turn it up. The name of the museum might have been somewhat inaccurate.
Whoa, do I detect some “Kingsoft translation” here, in other words, å·ę¢ę¦åæµ(tou1huan4 gai4nian4), sneaking in misconcepts?
soudenjapan,
20,000 to 30,000 orphans are left behind as a result. Are you implying 20~30,000 orphans were all fathered by South Koreans? Somehow, I find the mumber hard to believe. How many SK soldiers were in there?
No appology until quite recently. President Roh appologized to the Vietnamees for the first time. Prior to that ex-President Kim āmentionedā about it according to the korean man. Virtually no compensation except for helping school building in the areas where atrocities took place. Are you comparing this to Japan’s lack of satisfactory apology? There is NO comparison. Japan was the initiator of the war, WW2, the invasion of China, and the invasion into other Asian countries. This is a matter at an entirely different level.
I tried to find the museum but Google didānt turn it up. The name of the museum might have been somewhat inaccurate. Now it is an issue of the name of a museum?
Gin,
>Somehow, I find the mumber hard to believe. How many
>SK soldiers were in there?
The number is a little over 51,000. It’s a very well-known stroy about Korean soldiers in Vietnam. They say that Korean soldiers raped every women they saw, and many of them were later murdered in ways as horrifying as, or even more horrifying than the ways of murdering which the Japanese soldiers are accused of.
To be accurate, let me quote the Krean man whom I was speaking to.
“soudenjapan, you said thirty thousands of orphans left in Vietnam was the result of rapes committed by South Korean soldiers. But it is not true. It can depend on concept of rape, but most of orphans were from broken Korean soldiersā promise. Most of Korean solder didnāt keep their promise to take Vietnam woman to korea or to live with them after the war. A fact is a fact.”
>There is NO comparison.
>This is a matter at an entirely different level.
How different? Let me repond to you after finding out what exactly your point is.
>Now it is an issue of the name of a museum?
Why not? What’s wrong with asking for the name of museum? Many the Japanese people believe that too much amount of fabrication and propaganda have been spread out by ill-intended Chinese and Koreans, such as Iris Chung. So I’m just trying to be caustious. That’s all, though I feel somewhat skeptical that a national museum displays a conspiracy theory as part of their view.
Soudenjapan,
Oh, give me a ^*(^&%@ break! Criticizing Korean atrocities doesn’t make the Japanese atrocities any better. You can talk about the atrocities of the Koreans, the Ottomans, the Mongols, the Romans, the ancient Egyptians, hell, even one Neanderthal tribe against another, this still does NOT make the Japanese atrocities any less worse than they were. The bottom line is Japan’s “defensive” war against American “bullying” and the creation of an “Asia for Asians” wiped out up to 30 million people, most of whom were Asians, including 20 million Chinese. So once again, I am INFINITELY GLAD America dropped those 2 A-bombs on Japan and later stringing up Tojo and the rest of the thugs. In my book, the 60th anniversary of the Hiroshima bombing should be a celebration, not of regret. And for people with limited understanding of the evil of the Japanese in WWII, here are some links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes#Japanese_views
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731
DXC: I was exaggerating for effect. My point is that the distortion in that museum was as great
as my suggestions.
Oh, and you can ask the author of http://www.outpostnine.com where the museum is. He knows Japanese, so he could probably give you the Japanese name. I’ve read him a bit and he does not seem to make shit up (pus, there’s a picture attached).
BTW, I find your assertion that 50K-60K soldiers fathered 20K children to be a bit hard to believe. Please provide some evidence.
Oh, and as someone else stated earlier, there is NO COMPARISON. Besides the fact that Japan embarked on a war of brutal conquest, while the Koreans (and Americans) committed atrocities in Vietnam, they did not commit them at nearly the same scale that the Japanese did in China and elsewhere. They didn’t perform medical experiments on civilians either. I have relatives on both sides of my family who were murdered by Japanese soldiers. Those soldiers were never brought to justice, and I’m almost sure that they never apologized either.
What I dislike is how some of you Japanese are still unwilling to face the facts and what your forefathers did. I’m of the view that if your father was a murderer and a rapist, you should call your father a murderer and a rapist. It’s as simple as that. To not do so is to be a coward.
BTW, what are you asserting that Iris Chang fabricated? If you have evidence that she did, I want to see it.
Oh, and your assertion that “this is how people are. This is how people teach history to children” is bullshit. That might be how cowards teach history to their kids, and that might be how Japanese people are, but the Germans do not omit the Holocaust when they teach history on WWII and the Americans do not omit the tragic wrongs inflicted on the Native Americans when they teach the history of their country.
Finally, Japanese atrocities were not confined to Nanjing. That was merely the most visible and biggest crime against humanity that they committed during that war.
Richard,
>BTW, what are you asserting that Iris Chang fabricated?
>If you have evidence that she did, I want to see it.
Take a lood at some of the pictures she used in her book.
http://www.jiyuu-shikan.org/e/fujioka/index.html
Today, no serious scholar in the U.S., China, Japan, or any other countries do not quote Iris Chung nor does cite her best selling book “Rape of Nanking.” So-called revisionists contributed to uncovering her faburication. Some serious historians in the U.S. were also pointing out frauds in her book from the beginning.
>but the Germans do not omit the Holocaust when
>they teach history on WWII and the Americans do
> not omit the tragic wrongs inflicted on the Native
>Americans when they teach the history of their
>country.
Holocaust is an atrocity of entirely different nature. Jewish people were not terrorists, insurgents, or guerrilla fighters. They were regular civilians.
Richard, you take a huge pride in how Americans face their past conducts, for which, I personally believe, you have a good ground, but even today people in Central and South America unbelievably bitterly criticize Americans for not facing its conducts in the past in their countries that caused tremendous suffering to them.
I have been disscussing many issues with Americans but you are the first one I’ve met who takes such a huge pride in Americas’s ability to face its past conducts, admitting its wrong doings, not to mention reparations.
>You can talk about the atrocities of the Koreans,
>the Ottomans, the Mongols, the Romans, the
>ancient Egyptians, hell, even one Neanderthal
>tribe against another,
Yes, we can talk. I talk. Nothing is wrong with it as you suggest.
>atomic bomb
I am not necessarily for using A-bombs, but, putting emotions aside, I’ve always credited those bombs for finally ending the WW II. I just wish that the bombs had been used a little earlier than August, 1945. Had the war ended a litte earlier, my grandfather could have survived. He died in his very last sailing mission before retirement as cheif engineer.
Richard,
>while the Koreans (and Americans) committed
> atrocities in Vietnam, they did not commit them
> at nearly the same scale that the Japanese
>did in China and elsewhere.
I believe that it is just a matter of scale of the war and the number of people involved. That is why Koreans lost only 5000 soldiers while Japanese lost several million.
>BTW, I find your assertion that 50K-60K soldiers
>fathered 20K children to be a bit hard to believe.
>Please provide some evidence.
Asking someone from South Korea about the revelation is the best way to get to the infromation. Hankyoreh 21, a weekly Korean magazine, published the information for the first time in South Korea. Then the Hankyoreh Shinmun, a Korean daily, investigated the issue in Vietnam and reported with some interviews with former Korean officers.
In Japan Asahi Newspaper reported it in March 17, 2001 for the first time.
The exact number of the orphans is unknown because they were treated badly in Vietnam and are relactant to come forward. The estimated figures differ from source to source but they fall somewhere between 7000 to 50,000. In taltal, 320,000 Korean soldiers were sent to Vietnam during the war.
The investigation is still going on in Vietnam according to the Korean man I quoted.
Richard,
>Taken from the National War History Museum in Tokyo
This National War History Museum turned out to be a museum attached to Yasukuni Shurine. It is a private institution. That makes sense. I told you it sounded weird for any of such a presitgious museum with many scholars assert a conspiracy theory.
Da Xiangchang,
>So once again, I am INFINITELY GLAD America dropped
>those 2 A-bombs on Japan and later stringing up Tojo
>and the rest of the thugs. In my book, the 60th
>anniversary of the Hiroshima bombing should be a
>celebration, not of regret.
That’s fine with me. Either way, whether you celebrate or regret it, what difference does it make unless you are a very important person or your view influences a policy? You are entitle to your opinion.
Another rather balanced take on the Hiroshima bombing:
http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson200508050714.asp
There’s another good thing that came out of Hiroshima. Without the bombing, there wouldn’t have been that famous 1950s French movie “Hiroshima Mon Amour” in which a perverted Japanese man frolicked with a hot French woman in the showers. My eyes were popping when I watched the movie the first time cuz it involved an explicit interracial romance. I mean, even now in 2005, mainstream Hollywood’s NOT going to show some Asian guy rolling around in the sack with a hot pink broad, but the French were doing it in the ’50s. So yeah, I gotta say, the French ain’t all bad. You got to love the Louvre, Impressionism . . . and movies about perverted Asian guys lusting after hot pink women (“Hiroshima” and the pretentious but fun “The Lover”).
Da Xiangchang
i feel sorry for the victims.
how can you say , “I am INFINITELY GLAD America dropped those 2 A-bombs on Japan”
They were civilians.
You are sick, monster.Shame on you.
soudenjapan says:
“Holocaust is an atrocity of entirely different nature. Jewish people were not terrorists, insurgents, or guerrilla fighters. They were regular civilians.”
To bring up a dead thread, most Chinese who were murdered and raped by Japanese soldiers were civilians as well. Both my granduncle and greatgrandfather who were summarily executed by Japanese were civilians. Furthermore, a lot of KMT solders were killed after they surrendered. It’s too bad that it seems like most Japanese still want to ignore their history, because then they express bewilderment at the hatred that some many people have for them for not owning up to their history, when, if they had been brutalized like the Chinese were, they would understand the root of it. BTW, this wasn’t just Nanjing, and it wasn’t just when the Japanese took over. In pretty much every city, town, and hamlet that the Japanese occupied, the Japanese engendered deep hatred due to their rapes, wanton killings, and overall brutality.
You know, the interesting thing is, I’ve read a bunch of sites now where discussion on the Nanking Massacre has taken place, and I have not encountered a single Japanese poster who just came out and said “What the Japanese did to the Chinese people during WWII was horrible. It was deplorable. I hope the Chinese can forgive us.” Not. a. single. one. Always, if I see someone with a handle that identifies them as Japanese, they try to minimize it, or say it was wrong but the Chinese should move on, or point out atrocities committed by the Chinese/Americans/etc. (as if that makes what they did OK). Now, this might not be a representative sample, but
I’d like to know why that is. It isn’t as if Japanese never apologize (if anything, they apologize more than Chinese or Westerners). Do the Japanese who do feel that their country committed great wrongs just don’t want to speak up, so they let the right-wing bastards hog all the time?
This is probably really too late, but I am of Japanese ancestry, and I really have to say that Japan does disgust me down to the stomach at times! I dont live in Japan (I live in the UK) but I really fully regret the crimes commited throughout history by Japan. I mean the government are basically like Nazis, and there are so many Bigoted racists in Japan, who like you said, are so full of cowardice that they can’t admit crimes commited. I used to think that Japan was a great place, but honestly, it is a fascist, Ultra-nationalist nation. And Japanese PM Shinzo Abe, who is a right-wing bastard(and probably a puppet), is an absolute shame to humanity.
Honestly, I don’t blame anyone insulting Japan anymore, they started WWII on America, and commited disgusting crimes, and STILL, people can’t admit it happened. I think it will take much more than ‘sorry’ for China, Korea or anywhere else for that matter, to forgive Japan. Abe probably wants to declare war on China, since he wants an army for Japan. Seriously, this guy is a psychopath, no better than Adolf Hitler or Josef Stalin!
I don’t want to be associated with the atrocities of Japan!
What really makes me angry is that people voted for this guy in the election a few days ago. Abe doesn’t even care about his own country! Victims of Fukushima are suffering because of him, with no help or care in the world, and he wants to get rid of democracy! The majority of Japanese society are robotic sheep! Absolutely brainwashed.
He doesn’t have the balls to admit Japan’s atrocities, nor does he have any intentions.
You said ” Do the Japanese who do feel that their country committed great wrongs just donāt want to speak up”
Exactly! If they say anything which shows signs of ‘wrong’ to their own country, Japanese society will wreak havoc on them. If anyone actively opposes the government, Yakuzas will probably be sent to deal with you in harsh ways. This is a messed up country, and I don’t personally think there is any hope for it. This nation is the most brainwashed place in the world.
“… and I have not encountered a single Japanese poster who just came out and said āWhat the Japanese did to the Chinese people during WWII was horrible. It was deplorable. I hope the Chinese can forgive us.ā Not. a. single. one.”
This is the most nauseating this about Japan. Lots people never show remorse for the Naijing Massacre, Manchuria or any warcrimes performed by the Jpn army! Also, Pearl Harbor was a stupid action to carry out. They brought the atomic bombs on themselves, and could have prevented it, and the hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths if they had surrendered straight away. I want to apologize.
The things that have happened have not been apologized for properly, by the government and the ultra-nationalist public. The things said by Japanese people about Korea and China are really appalling, and cause the other side to retaliate. And a note, the history books are absolutely fucking awful! (excuse my language, only way to describe them though unfortunately).
I really think that Japan have done so many horrible and gut-wrenching things, and comparison with anything else doesn’t really reduce the magnitude of trauma to people caused by what Japan did. And victims STILL haven’t recieved apologies from Japan. I really don’t think that China and Korea could forgive Japan that easily, especially after this period of time without any remorse from Japan. I used to think that Japan was being treated harshly by Chinese and Koreans, but honestly, it is really the other way round. A few other Japanese people I know agree with me. Koreans and Chinese in Japan are treated how Black people were in early 20th century USA! Japan is extremely xenophobic country, it is horrible. Koreans have their shops broken by nationalists in Japan. It’s must be terrifying. I wish racist would just die out…
The only reason Japan is an MEDC is because of the money. It is socially undeveloped.
The only really great things about this country is the Weather, the food, culture (festivals, etc), wildlife, transport, technology and the fact that nice people from Japan are really genuinely nice people! Everything else… I don’t even know, and don’t want to go over it.
Overall, I really do regret what my country has done to China, Korea and anywhere/anyone else who has been affected! This planet as a whole needs a cleanup from corruption. I love China by the way! Your food is really astonishing! I love it! Also, quite a lot of Chinese people I’ve met are very pleasant. Korean food is very nice as well! Especially the pancakes (I think it’s called chigimi? not too sure), and Samsung is a great company. I want to say that all the Japanese trolls who talk shit about China and Korea are just lifeless, bored far right nationalist people who are probably will (hopefully) commit suicide or something, what a waste of space those people are.
Message to China(and other nations): Please don’t hate all Japanese people, of course, please send as many death threats to the nationalist cockroaches! I hate them as much as you do, they need to be emaciated. They all think that Japan is the best, and that anyone else is inferior – but we are all humans. Nationalists from any country are dirty dogs, but the ones in Japan seem to be among the worst. My opinion of them: They should be sent back in time to suck Tojo’s dick when it is covered in rotten smegma. Japan has many problems that need sorting. Especially the government, what corrupt Nazis.
Anyway, thats the end of my comment. I hope you guys see this. One thing is for sure, thank god I live in the UK, much less xenophobia here than Japan. Asians of different nationalities here can also live without any problems with eachother, which is great!