The Hunt for Chinabounder
A while back I mentioned a blog called Sex in Shanghai in which a Western guy tells about all his exploits with Chinese women here in Shanghai. (That blog is still #1 on the “hottest blogs” list on the CBL, but it now seems to be inaccessible.) Since then, the Chinese have found out about the blog, and they are (understandably) pissed.
> From time to time, Chinabounder uses his own experiences as a springboard to make sweeping generalisations on, among other things, the sexual frustrations in Chinese marriages, the failings of Chinese men, and the overly tradition-bound upbringing of Chinese girls which makes them rebellious and sexually adventurous. Chinese netizens have routinely been posting venomous messages on his blog in response to his pop-social commentaries — and his occasional outpourings on the Cultural Revolution and Mao Zedong’s womanising ways.
> But last week, a professor of psychology at the prestigious Shanghai Academy of Social Sciences gave new direction to this hyperventilating when he called for an Internet manhunt “to find this foreign trash until we kick him out of China.” In a posting on his own blog, Prof. Zhang Jiehai said that Chinabounder, “an immoral foreigner”, had routinely used “obscene and filthy language to record how he used his status as a teacher to dally with Chinese women… At the same time, he did everything that he could to insult the Chinese government and men.”
> Giving sparse details about Chinabounder’s identity (he’s probably a 34-year-old Briton) Zhang called on “Chinese netizens and compatriots” to join this “Internet hunt for the immoral foreigner”. That message has found echo in numerous Chinese websites and blogs, which have resonated with calls for lynching Chinabounder.
Yikes! Real life consequences for licentious behavior in Shanghai? What is this world coming to?
Thanks to Megan for the tip.
Update 1: ESWN covered this story yesterday in greater detail. (Thanks to Phil, for bringing this to my attention. Phil also shared his thoughts on it, from a new media perspective.)
Update 2: Chinabounder has an imitator (sort of) that calls herself the “ChinaBoundress,” an “ABC Chick in Shanghai.”
Update 3: Sex and Shanghai a hoax? (Danwei.org)
Comments
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I have that guy’s MSN. He isnt that bad. Maybe he’s only a sex-hungry man.
However,some Chinese women should be blamed as they trade their body for green cards. Those women make guys like Chinesebounder think all Chinese are cheap.
I’ve been to Xin Tian Di in Shanghai. There some whitemen who dont behave well are still popular among Shanghainese women. It’s difficult to understand.
To do a bit of shameless comment spam, I think the most interesting thing in this whole case is the way in which Zhang Jiehai is trying to manufacture a “web phenomenon” tide of anger online in order to create change off it. I wrote as much yesterday…
Just a reminder:
the women who go to somewhere where whitemen appear to find some chance to go abroad are really mean, but they are really suitable to the western guys who has nothing in their own homeland,but hug themselves on their ‘success’ in hunting women in China. They are just jackals of the same lair! No wonder!
Someday if China is better than the western, maybe some chinese guys will do the same thing to the western girls. Maybe the chinese guys will think all the western girls are cheap!
Is this right?
Sam: That is crazy. whitewomen would never lower themselves to that.
Jeff,
Better be careful, or people won’t realize you’re joking.
(If even I don’t think you’re joking, that’s when I start deleting…)
@ Jeff,
You must be a white male or female. I want you know that not only whitewomen but any wowan in the world should not lower themselves to that. But the realty is they, they can be from any country in the world, have ever been, or they are in, or will be in that position. They can be white, yellow, or black.
Somebody on another blog quipped that 25 years from now some Chinese language teacher rogue will be shagging his daughers and other Western women.
“his daughters” mean Chinabounder’s daughters.
If he’s a Briton, he’s good at masking his nationality behind Australian/Canadian mixed spelling.
Jeff,
you are right to certain degree, you know why? because the mean whitewomen can just make money using their body legally, not like the mean chinese women have to use some more implicative ways.
LAOSAN,
Why could only women lower to that, the mean men is the underlying reason!
If men behave themselves like real people not like animals, how can the mean women find the market and the chance?
I guess my earlier comment was rude but my intent was just to take Sam’s real point and race-reverse it to show that it’s anachronistic. People getting it on with another nationality is no big deal. The idea it can inspire some kind of online jihad is some kind of joke. This movement acts as if it’s some revenge or karmic blow (or something) that in twenty five years some Chinese guy might get it on with white women. In reality shit like that happens now, and nobody thinks twice about it.
Considering it’s probably about .005% of China’s female population involved, it comes off as some weird xenophobia more than anything.
I agree with Jeff. Chinabounder is amoral, tasteless, and tactless — sounds like a real jerk — and is trying to bed as many women as possible. Ok, that describes about 80% of men, afaik. I don’t know what the Chinese girls he has slept with have done wrong other than having the bad judgement to sleep with a guy like him who will then blog about it. Or are they “lowering themselves” simply by sleeping with a “foreigner?” This whole red guard jihad only reveals Chinese insecurities when it comes to foriegners. If some French guy came to the US and started sleeping with American women and blogging about it (my word! the horror, the horror!), people might think the French guy is a jerk, but I don’t think they would try to get him deported and send him death threats. Why is that?
For the last friggin’ time, the so-called “outrage” was not about him sleeping with women, it’s about him being a racist and saying all kinds of ignorant, hateful things about Chinese poeple. The response will be the same or worse in any country in the world. It ended with him voluntarily and spinelessly closing his blog, and that’s all. I’m sure if it were a foreigner in America bad-mouthing Americans, he’d have suffered much more.
@proteal
I’m not sure why the outrage is “so-called.” You are really claiming that this has nothing to do with him sleeping with Chinese women? Almost every comment I’ve seen on this whole episode relates to that; there is a “protect our women from the dirty foreigners” theme running throughout.
Yeah, because no foreigners in America ever bad-mouth Americans on blogs. If they did, they would surely be hunted down.
Well said proteal.
People are eager to step up and defend chinabounder and his right to free speech. This is true, but Prof. Zhang Jiehai and all other chinabounder-haters have their rights too. Maybe people will start realizing that if they tread on thin ice it’s bound to break eventually. The internet provides unlimited freedom but that also makes it unstable territory. I think people should know by now, if you post something on the internet it can and may be read by millions of people. If you can’t handle the consequences, DON’T POST IT!
They have the right to free speech? Which country are we talking about here?
Exactly. If you aren’t prepared to be hunted down by online mobs and threatened for what you write, you really shouldn’t be blogging. If a blogger is hunted down and threatened, it is obviously his own doing and he should suffer the consequences, because those hunting him down “have their rights, too.” That’s one theory, anyway.
For this jerk, he not only blogged his amoral actions against those tasteless chinese women, but also bad-mouthing China and chinese government. He remarked that Xin Jiang is not part of china. What an idiot? How many foreigners in China have ever learned any chinese history? Xin Jiang has been part of China at least since Qing Dynasty. How long does Qing Dynasty last? About 300 years. The same holds true to Tibet too. Those areas have been part of China for quite long. I still see quite a few western websites saying China annexed Xin Jiang in 1950. What a joke!
Since he is britain, should we advocate the britain get the hell out of Northern Island? Should they get the hell out of the island near Argentina which they call faukland island??? Should they returned the Canal authority back to Spain?
He definitely deserves to be kicked out of China. We welcome any foreigners who have good will for the chinese people. For some idiot like him, please do not ever come to our country.
In his diatribe, Prof. Zhang comes across as an totally insecure, silly man. His argument against Chinabounder is twofold: 1) he is “immoral” for lying and sleeping with Chinese girls, 2) he makes fun of the Chinese people and nation. Let’s look at each of these arguments:
The Immorality Argument:
Everybody knows that there are more whores in a Shanghai neighborhood than most big Western cities. Within a few blocks of the college I taught at in Shanghai there were 5 massage parlors/whorehouses! So a Chinese guy lecturing about Western “immorality” makes as much sense as a porn star lecturing a normal girl about not keeping her virginity. If Zhang really wants to “respect Chinese women,” why doesn’t he ask his “Chinese compatriots” to close down these whorehouses or–gulp!–help stop those hundreds of thousands of Chinese girls who get aborted every year?!! But a foreigner rolling around in bed with Chinese girls–stop the presses and call in the PLA!
He makes fun of the Chinese nation and people argument:
You know what–I agree with 80% of what Chinabounder says. Chinese people do, on average, 1) blame others for their misfortunes, 2) play the victim card incessantly (often just like black people), 3) are ignorant of their history, and 4) are ultranationalistic. Instead of refuting these arguments, Zhang instead writes something like “How dare he say this!” and vow to kick Chinabounder out of the country. WTF?!! Zhang acts like the weak-minded child who, when confronted with opinions he doesn’t like, stamps his palms over his ears and say, “I don’t want to hear this, I don’t want to hear this!” How pathetic is that, man?!!
Dude, the Chinese people have a loooonnnnnnggggg way to go before they can truly be democratic if even their educated class can act so immaturely. They can’t function in the modern world since they’re too insecure to even accept opinions different from their own. It’s NOT about about being in China or not being in China–it’s about you’re adults or little kids. Obviously, by their reactions, some Chinese just can’t handle the modern world.
This isn’t to say I admire Chinabounder, though. He’s just one of those loser laowais who couldn’t get laid in the West so he’s in the East getting laid. Big deal.
Dr. Zhang is enraged not only by a Western man bragging about sexual conquests of Chinese women (I think Shanghai Bounder’s blog is a wet dream) but also slights on the manhood of Chinese males. Chinese news stories on the Yahoo message boards are full of racist tripe, and on one unmonitored blog I read, a few Western men can be counted on to post disparaging remarks about Asian men on topics relating to interracial dating and marriage.
I read the first part of Zhang’s proposed research study on foreign women’s views of Chinese men. I am a little put off by the fact that Dr. Zhang plans to interview only white women. I sent him an email asking him why.
I’m in the East getting laid… to be fair though, I also got laid in the West. Both still shock the hell out of me.
The thing that makes this whole story interesting to me, aside from all the dialog it stirs up on these issues, is that we’re all fascinated by it. Myself include. This story spread through the China blogsphere faster than Sichuan food darts through my GIT.
I’m with 88 though, encouraging a lynching is not fair play. Chinabounder didn’t hurt anything but feelings (and I’ll guess he MAY have brought a little pleasure to some of these girls…). Best I know, “racist womanizer” is not a checkbox on that Entry Permit Form you fill out on the airplane coming in to China, nor is it a limitation on any visa application I’ve seen. Nor is being a racist womanizer limited to foreigners in this country…
There is an assumption that Chinabounder is reporting factual events. His blog may just be a reflection of his fantasy mixed with social commentary.
Many people seem to think that the Chinese natives are overreacting, but I think that Chinabounder guy deserves it. The Chinese natives who are angry may not be able to point their fingers at what’s wrong with Chinabounder, but don’t you guys get the feeling that Chinabounder is a racist? When he talks about his romantic history, it’s never just with a girl, but with “Chinese girls.” The reason of his success is not merely because of weak competition, but because of weak competition from the CHINESE. It’s obvious that the guy is obsessed with race. I understand that when a foreigner is in China, Chinese culture becomes a part of his life, but this person loves to make board generalizations about Chinese, and those generalizations are more often than not negative ones. Chinabounder may not have crossed the line by actually admitting that he’s a racist, but people can tell what he’s thinking just from his writing. That expains the Chinese natives’ reactions.
Blog world in chaos! Chinese ‘intelligentsia’ freaking out about a non-issue! World hold on! Rolling eyes emoticon
On a slightly related topic, which does ChinaBoundress insist on calling herself an ABC when she is clearly Belgian?
Her words: “Hi. I call myself a 19 years old ABC, even if I’m not born in America or live there. In fact I live in Belgium. I have lived here since I was a baby. I still think the term ABC fits me pretty well though.”
How does the term American Born Chinese fit her well as a Belgian Born Chinese? Why are all Belgians nuts?
Prof. Zhang and the hijad are a bit weird and boring, but if you say what Chinabounder did is the right to free speech, then maybe Prof. Zhang should have the same right. Before he can really kick the jerk out of China, it is just his free speech.
If the jerk was really a man not like ‘weak’ chinese men whom he thinks, he should have not just closed the blog but come out to give his free speech, because even the ‘weak’ chinese men know to answer for what they did or said.
To jeff
“People are eager to step up and defend chinabounder and his right to free speech. This is true”, No, this is not ture. Actuall, “Free speech” is relative.What will u get if u said the killing of Jewish was right in Israel? Just think about it!If I wrote some dirty word to greet your mother or your family and posted on the web, what will u do? Do u still think the speech is free?
The blog from the son of bitch Chinabouner (It should stop use this name, it has no right to use the word of China.) offensed the feeling of all Chinese men and women. Why should we defense the bullshit “speech free?” No way!
What I want to say is that u sons of bitch should take off the colored glasses and see China clearly.
I admitted that some Chinese girls is willing to make a body trade with some meanessless foreinger. It is a pity and forbidden in China. But the same situation existed in the western countries. For example, the scandals from Clinton and the recently Foreigner minister for G.B. Don’t think the white women is nobler than Chinese women. Maybe your wife has slept with some Chinese men and you can ask her if you are interested. This is set up that u can have a wife.(But I don’t think so because maybe u are a loser.(Don’t mad at me, Speech Free). But I swear that I am not that guy . ^_^
Since the same thing happened to a chineses person as is happening to Chinabounder right now (the world of warcraft affair), I think this has more to do about anti women and and anti sex feelings than zenophobia in China. There are a shitload of bloggers that badmouth China every day, and no one cares. The only reason people are paying attention to this is because of the sex.
But what it comes down to is that these are consensual relationships between adults and there is nothing wrong about it.
I say we should bring chiabounder into the sinosplice network!
Carl:
I am using the term ABC, because it is such a wellknown term. If I said BBC, people would believe that I was from the UK.
I don’t really think the birthplace is a hell of a deal if people have the right to call themselves an ABC or BBC, It is more how the person feel, does he or she feel American or like a Belgian? That’s what matters.
Daxiangchang:
many whores in a Shanghai doesn’t mean that those chinese girls deserve what Chinabounder did!
Please be careful! The only Prof. Zhang doesn’t equal to the chinese educated class! What the hell are you thinking about? Almost only chinese people have different opinions on this issue, because only chinese people got hurt!!! In your opinion, why you can handle the modern world is just let some jerks get it on with your ‘sisters’ and ‘mothers’ in your country, blog all the details, insult them even your country, distort the history, then you just say: yeha, this is free speech, this is how the modern world works!
Am i getting you right?
Don’t worry, they won’t lynch Chinabounder. They just want to find out who he is and have a little talk with him. The worst thing that can happen to him is that he gets kicked out of the country, no biggie at all.
I personally find the whole thing hilarious. Is this how many white people in China think but just don’t say it? I sure hope not, especially the offensive stuff about Chinese men. Why can’t we all just get along? Plenty of women out there to romance.
Pinguo: sex with foreigners is forbidden in China? People getting mad cancels all rights of free speach? In the US, you can’t say it is a good thing Jewish people get killed in Israel? Awesome!
Alf: maybe that is the truth. If some Chinese guy had a similar blog about his sexual conquests in Shanghai, would there also be the same kind of uproar? Truth be told I have no idea.
The Jeff/jeff split is confusing. Maybe I should add an “er” to my name.
To Jeff：
First I want to clarify this one: The sex thing betwwen Chinese girls and white men is none of our business. It is a freedom of them. But the body trade is forbidden in China。
I think the meaning of “Speech Free” is not like the speech can or maybe hurt the feeling of somebody or whole nation. The most important one in this affair is that the bullshit “Chinabounder” used some words to insult my country and my people. U are not nationlism。 Unfortunately， I am. I can’t abide the behaviors of “foreigner Trash” .
Think about the cartoon incident between Europe and Muslim in this year. Do you think it is a joke?
Do not think the so-called democracy can be used at everywhere. U have to obey the laws and the traditions of the country u live. This is a fundmental pricinple.
”In the US, you can’t say it is a good thing Jewish people get killed in Israel? “Maybe I should add some words in my sentence because u didn’t understand it . Yes, it is my fault that i didn’t express it very clearly.
“it is a good thing Jewish people get killed by Nazi during W.W. II .”Could you say these words to Jewish in Israsel or in Germany? They are also democracy and speech free in those countries in your opinion.Right?
Chinabounder made plenty of generalizations in his blog, but it’s hard to pin him down as a racist because he does admit he’s generalizing, and he even admitted that there are young, hip guys in China (unfortunately I can’t link to that entry anymore because he’s made his blog private). I think he’s qualified his views enough times to let a reasonable reader realize that these are his opinions about MOST Chinese men, not ALL Chinese men.
One interesting thing that hasn’t been mentioned so much is that his opinions are allegedly echoed and confirmed by the Chinese women he sleeps with. He seems to largely give evidence for his opinions by using choice quotes from his lovers. Now, of course we can’t completely trust what he says, but we shouldn’t be surprised at all to hear what these women are saying. Of course their boyfriends/husbands are lousy lovers, why else would they be cheating on them with this guy? So Chinabounder’s conclusions about the boyfriends/husbands are probably correct, but he overreaches a bit in saying that most Chinese men are like that.
Another interesting aspect of this case is that the Chinese reader’s comments to Chinabounder’s posts tended to be angry, incoherent, and even more vulgar than Chinabounder himself. In particular a guy who gave his name as ffffffffffff or something. He wrote at least 20 posts to the effect of “I’ll f*** Queen Elizabeth, how do you feel about that?” I don’t know what he and his ilk were trying to accomplish, but they did a pretty good job of fitting the stereotype Chinabounder was talking about.
He’s UGLY!
I wont leave any comment if he’s just HUGER for sex, coz somehow it’s his (or i should say those women’s also) attitude, none of our business. One cannot criticize any of them since even God hasn’t set the criterion for sex frequency and partners.
But, i say he’s ugly because he offends the base line of morality. I dont get a reason why he’s in that agitation? His stupid words even worse than any pornographic novel you ever read! The advice i’ll give him is that “less fxxking more reading, this may help to make a presentable porn.”
He’s UGLY!
I wont leave any comment if he’s just HUGER for sex, coz somehow it’s his (or i should say those women’s also) attitude, none of our business. One cannot criticize any of them since even God hasn’t set the criterion for sex frequency and partners.
But, i say he’s ugly because he offends the base line of morality. I dont get a reason why he’s in that agitation? His stupid words even worse than any pornographic novel you ever read! The only advice i’ll give him is that “less fxxking more reading, this may help to make a presentable porn.”
et tu, John? I expect the typical know-nothing China blogger to get caught up in the self-inflicted mess of this imbecile aka Chinabounder, but it’s a true shame to see the Old Order lower themselves to this kind of tabloid journalism, or I guess ‘tablogism’. I had hoped the China Blog Mafia was above this kind of thing.
Topics related to sex always get more attention than others. The guy caused all the disbutes here and there can have all the sex he wants and he can get freely if no criminal involved. It is ok for him being more satisfied with his partners praise his ability by comparing it with their other partners. This kind of man needs that to support his self-esteem. Otherwise, how he continues to think he is useful.
About bodytrades, I don’t see the party who contributes his valuables other than body (of course, his body has to participate the trade either; you know what I want to express) is higher than the other party. Both parties are equally ugly.
The above is a Chinese’s opinion.
Have you read some of the other essays from the esteemed professor (or is it instructor?)
He has a couple of interviews with western women, desperately asking them for advice as to how to bag a foreign girlfriend, even though so many Chinese men (re: himself) think that their dicks are too small or that all western women have AIDS.
http://zhangjiehai.blog.phoenixtv.com/user3/zhangjiehai/archives/2006/262554.html
http://blog.phoenixtv.com/user3/zhangjiehai/archives/2006/247067.html
http://blog.phoenixtv.com/user3/zhangjiehai/archives/2006/160588.html
The guy is clearly a nutter with serious self-esteem issues, but a dangerous one at that.
I remember reading someone’s comments chastising the Chinese (more specifically, the educated class) for their immature behavior. However, I think the Chinese are hardly alone in this kind of behavior. Take for example “dog-poop girl” in Korea, who was forced to leave her university because of all the hell she received because she refused to clean up her dog’s “present” on a subway car after someone ID’ed her from a cell phone photo passed around the internet. In the US, a couple was harrassed for weeks after a story appeared online reporting that they sued two girls because a late-night cookie delivery frightened the wife. The forms of harrassment ranging from the rather humorous boxes of cookies to death threats over the phone.
Internet vigilantism is pretty vicious. Combine the nasty attitude many “netizens” have thanks to their anonymity with a real life situation that drives them to “righteous anger” and you’ve got a lynch mob ready to go. This phenomenon knows no national borders, but can happen pretty much anywhere.
As for the immaturity of the educated class in China, I think it’s hard to use one professor’s “crusade” to describe an entire group of people. Maybe the majority of Chinese professors do agree. I don’t know. However, a doctorate doesn’t mean you’re going to be rational, or “objective,” or even sensible. Look at Ward Chruchill’s “little Eichmanns” statement about WTC victims. Should we extend his views to include the entire educated class of the United States? Of course not, and I wouldn’t say that this suggests any immaturity of the Chinese educated any more than Churchill’s statement suggests that the educated class of Americans are immature. Also, ultimately the attacks on Chinabounder’s blog were not committed by Prof. Zhang, and I think maybe only a few were inspired to attack his blog by anything he said. I figure most were probably in their teens and early twenties, because that tends to be the make-up of those who do that kind of stuff in the US. Someone probably found the blog, got pissed, posted it on a few forums, and got other people to join in on the attack. That’s usually how it happens (I enjoy looking at these types of things).
At any rate, if I can be any more judgemental here, I would say I disagree with both. I find Chinabounder’s behavior offensive, and he got what was coming to him, but I wouldn’t stop him from doing what’s his choice and certainly hope no serious harm comes to him. At the same time, while I can understand Prof. Zhang feels insulted (while I wouldn’t go to such extremes, I would be a bit irked if someone did the same thing in my country), I think a call to arms is a bit out there. What do you accomplish by chasing one philandering foreigner out of your country? A bad image of China for others to see? You’ll still have foreigners sleeping around with Chinese women. You can’t stop that. They’ll just be sure not to be so dumb as to write about their exploits in a blog.
At the same time, maybe a little criticism is important, even if it is delivered in a very crude fashion. A friend of mine has four maternal aunts in China, two of whom were divorced after their husbands were caught cheating on them, one of whom remains married despite knowing her husband has a lover, and the last one is unwilling to get married specifically because her older sisters have all had the same grief in their marriages. Domestic abuse is still quite common in China. Maybe it is important for men to use some self-reflection and take these comments Chinabounder’s women made and see if they make the same mistakes. Perhaps his role in that respect could be groundbreaking for men open-minded enough to look past the male Chinese-bashing he commits (though such “below the belt” attacks are admittedly hard to look past). I’d say try toning it down, but that’s the prude in me, and I’m not sure how you can bring down the tone of the message while still getting the point across considering sex is such a taboo subject.
My name is started with a lower-case “j” that should be enough of a distinction. 🙂 I do think that the professor is overreacting by sending out a “call to arms”, i also think that chinabounder doesn’t have to worry about a lynch mob (unless of course he’s playing world of warcraft). But the point is when you post something on the internet it will probably be read. And just like you can post whatever you want, people can react in whatever way they want. And if you keep pushing it (especially in a country where the world of worldcraft thing happened) then you should be prepared for the consequences. Say someone in the US was posting a blog about child molesting. Do you think that people wouldn’t do anything about it?
Of course child molesting and consensual sex are nowhere near on the same level, but you have to look at the cultural context here.
Sorry, should be “disputes”.
No way
lynching? are you going to say challenge?
This fly-by-night CB now hides his blog.
Will he take challenge? not a damn remore chance.
That’s about size of it.
Chinabounder’s comments doesn’t surprise me, what does surprise me is the reaction from the local Chinese. Why are they surprised or angry at what is but the truth? Anyone who has visited Shanghai and walked around Xintiandi or Nanjingdonglu will see nubile 18-21 year old Chinese girls hanging on to beached whales – by that I mean white Caucasians with no hair and huge bellies and aged between 50-70+. I am a British-Chinese man and was aghast – no, downright disgusted with what I saw in Shanghai when I was there in the spring. Don’t these Chinese ladies have any shame? There’s absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a white boyfriend or husband – but for goodness sake’s, choose a good looking young white guy like our friend John here or someone closer to your own age, not someone old enough to be your father.
What does worry me is the thought that this is the new face of China – one of increasing xenophobia. We have seen the anti-Japanese protests, and now this is anti-Brit/white hysteria. Granted ok, this guy used racist generalisation – that’s wrong, but at the end of the day, the social phenomena in question is no fabrication. Don’t believe me? Head out to the centre of Shanghai, start at Renmin Square and look around.
At the end of the day, I believe that these Chinese ladies hanging out with the beached whales out to have more self-respect and go for a younger white guy if they do want a white partner. The Chinese have this concept of ‘losing face’ – and now the kind of knee-jerk reaction from this lose of face is scary. Do not get carried away in this hysteria. After all, okay, so some shameless Chinese ladies in Shanghai are shagging beached white whales – so what? Does that reflect on other Chinese people who do not do that? I laugh at these silly women who indulge in such conneries, but I don’t feel that I’ve lost any face or have been insulted or compromised.
Alex
London, UK
I have 2 questions for these proud Chinese “compatriots”:
1) Why aren’t they mad at all those whores everywhere in Shanghai? Hundreds of thousands–millions?–of poor Chinese girls are selling themselves for almost no money. I can tell you the locations of a few of these massage parlors/whorehouses. Why don’t you go over there and give these poor girls some money? It’s your duty as honorable Chinese men to protect your “sisters” and “mothers” from the millions of disgusting Chinese perverts that go to these whorehouses.
2) Why aren’t you protesting against the millions of CHinese girls who are aborted every year? I guess by your silence, having sex with a foreigner is worse than being killed by a CHinese doctor. Don’t you know that Chinese doctors are killing thousands of your future “sisters” and “mothers” every single day? Why aren’t you doing anything about that?
Please answer these questions. If you don’t, you’ll be in my opinion what I always thought: incredibly insecure, hypocritical Chinese unable to cope with the outside world and opinions. You’re the reason China is not ready for democracy now.
Da XiangChang,
While some of his observations about the problems facing the nation are accurate, its truthfullness is somewhat irrelevant to the outrage.
Chinese Netizens, more than almost anybody, are aware of the country’s problems.
It is, however, an antilogy to justify Chinabounder’s behaviour, or to invalidate their anger with these arguments. After all, if you invited me into your home, gave me food, money and hospitality, only to have me sabotage your family by sleeping with your daughter and wife, then pretty much relieve myself of any moral responsibility by criticising the way you run your household, would you not be angry? Even if the criticisms were genuine, would you listen?
On a lighter note, check out Zhang’s other posts:
inteview with a Western woman:
http://blog.phoenixtv.com/user3/zhangjiehai/archives/2006/152962.html#514559
and his proposed research study on how Chinese men can attract white women:
http://blog.phoenixtv.com/user3/zhangjiehai/archives/2006/140126.html
Read and have a chuckle thinking about Zhang getting paid for this ‘research.’
Geez… go without an internet connection for a few days and this is the news I return to. This is so pathetic. They want to lynch a guy for bragging about having lots of sex, and the inter-mob is whipped up into a frenzy.
To me this issue is political. Every Chinese city and town I walk through is chalk full of KTVs, bathhouses, ‘hair’ salons, one hour love hotels and other dens of sex. The proprietors of these places are the army/police/government officials or those who are connected to the gov. Who are the customers of these places? The same motley crue who own the establishments…but the Chinese can’t lynch these guys so they turn their anger towards a foreigner. Pathetic hypocrisy!
Roland 宋又自作聪明了！
前几天他将张教授的檄文全文翻译成英文，贴在他颇有名气的博客 (http://www.zonaeuropa.com) 上面，把此次驱除流氓外国人事件向全世界作了广播。今天他话锋一转，声称他对这个事情不感兴趣。他在铁血社区找到了张教授文章的转贴，手指同一版面上由铁血网站提供的情色广告说（翻译）：“为什么我对这次声讨《欲望上海》博客写手Chinabounder的事情没有热情？恕我直言，这网页右边的东西（指情色广告）不是表示对女性–无论中外–的尊重。但为何无人为之愤慨？恰恰相反，（这种广告）被认为是司空见惯的东西。我是一个简单的人，要的只是对道德（标准）的一贯性。”
首先，我已经看到好多用英文写作的人在自己的博客上声称对此次事件不感兴趣了，个中心理背景，我就懒得分析了。但宋先生你不会不知道，Sex and Shanghai很长一段时间一直是 China Blog List (http://www.chinabloglist.org/) 所列十大热门的首席吧，而如今，在声讨声中，博客主人不得不关门大吉。你作为博客界元老级的人物，对这一现象作低调处理，恐怕有失水准吧！
宋先生，也许你是简单的，但道德不是。我斗胆为你分析一下。非婚的、无关爱情的、不专一的性关系大致有以下几种：
1． 性与性的交换，两性相悦，交换的是个人的性魅力，无可指责。或许Chinabounder 的中国性史里面有过这样的交易，但即便有，也不是他激起公愤的原因。
2． 性与钱的交换，你指出的情色广告属于这一范畴。这在有些国家是合法的。在中国，虽然非法，但法不责众，非常泛滥，是社会问题。对此，有人在针砭，但这和此次事件的深层原因无关。
3． 性与权力的交换，高官子弟玩弄女性属于这一类型。在这一层次上，即便当事人声称你情我愿，社会舆论也同样不会宽恕。如果曝光，就可能是政治问题。
4． 性与虚荣的交换，譬如痴情少女爱慕一位名画家，明知对方逢场作戏，仍然甘愿献身。
Chinabounder 的中国猎艳史里面，很多是第四种。这样说来，乍看好像没有问题。中国女性像爱慕一位画家一样去爱慕一个外国人，有问题吗？如果一个外国人有吸引女性的独到之处，当然没问题；但是，如果吸引女性的仅仅是“外国人”这一身份，就是问题。问题的症结在于，为什么外国人，尤其是白种人这样单纯的种族身份在有些中国女人的眼里，可以成为一种地位、荣耀、修养、性能力乃至特权的载体！
有人说，这是中国社会自身的问题，不应该迁怒于利用中国女人这一心理的Chinabounder。这话说对一半，这种心理是中国、乃至全亚洲的一个沉疴顽疾，不是一时半会可以治愈的。但这并不等于说我们听之任之，问题就会自然消失。有人取笑说，如此过激反应只能说明中国人幼稚、狭隘的民族主义、深层的焦虑。随他们怎么说，因为事实就是，在集体心理层面，中国人在西方人面前处于弱势。弱者可以选择继续唯唯诺诺，也可以选择自我改造。张教授大声疾呼的意义就在于，我们要把这个问题摆到台面上来。
最后一个问题，既然是自我心理改造，为什么把矛头指向 Chinabounder。答案很简单，他自找的。前面讲过，在男女社会心理方面，在中国的外国人享有事实上的强势地位。和所有别的强势地位一样，拥有者可以利用，但现代社会只允许你在小范围里夸耀，不允许你在公众面前趾高气扬，更不允许你奚落、侮辱被你利用的人。试想，如果富家公子哥或者高官子弟把他们的玩弄女性的经历搬上自己的博客，一样会招来网路追杀！木子美可以大谈自己的性事，因为她的性只是性，没有牵扯社会中敏感的神经。但是，享有强势地位的人，在你享用特权的时候，你就必须放弃木子美式的自由，因为这是你必须遵守的一种社会默契。
宋先生，道德从来都不是简单的！
Pro Zhang is a sick pervert hypocrite.
Prince Roy,
Haha, do you feel personally betrayed over this blog post?
I admit that I did post this one kind of impulsively, and later I questioned my motives for writing about this at all. But the truth is, I do find this case interesting, whether it’s tabloid fodder or not.
I find it interesting because (1) I think that many, many foreigners in China are tempted to become manwhores, and Chinabounder is just one rather extreme case, and (2) I actually considered translating parts of his blog and putting it on my Chinese blog to see what would happen. I’m now very glad I thought better of it (although it might have gotten me a ton of Chinese traffic!). This story is a lesson in consequences not only for Chinabounder, but for me as a CSL blogger.
The bottom line is that I alone decide what I cover on my blog. I write about what interests me. My blog content is not determined by the news, either in dictating what I write or in dictating what I don’t write.
犯强汉者,虽远必诛.
I think it was a good idea to make the post John. It was a nice summary of events (better than I’ve seen anywhere else) and, suprisingly, your stable of commenters for once had a pretty interesting debate about the facets of the case. I also now love Pinguo, although he/she is a bit of a nutcase. And Belgians are intellectually lazy, but weren’t we all at 19? Blog posts and comments concerning sweeping generalizations deserve more in kind.
And I don’t understand Prince Roy’s complaint. Even if you think it’s a non-issue of itself (I looked at the Chinabounder blog once, and wasn’t interested enough to keep looking), the ruckus it’s raising certainly makes it an interesting story. If nothing else, it’s interesting to read pinguo’s comments.
Dezza: it’s not just politicians frequenting these places. China doesn’t have that many politicians. When I lived in the outskirts, mostly I’d see obvious day laborers going in. I wondered, it’s a couple week’s salary?
Alex, you are racializing something that need not be racialized. There are plenty of older Chinese men with younger chinese girls with a money based relationship. It is not about shame, it is about money.
He’s UGLY!
I wont leave any comment if he’s just HUGER for sex, coz somehow it’s his (or i should say those women’s also) attitude, none of our business. One cannot criticize any of them since even God hasn’t set the criterion for sex frequency and partners.
But, i say he’s ugly because he offends the base line of morality. I dont get a reason why he’s in that agitation? His stupid words even worse than any pornographic novel you ever read! The advice i’ll give him is that “less fxxking more reading, this may help to make a presentable porn.”
Cheap men can hook up with cheap women easily. Cheap women could be found everywhere. And shanghai is not an exception in this world. But why do some people consider that shanghai women are comparatively easier to be hooked up or.. cheated by foreign guys? Because 1. they got the opportunity and they are curious. 2. they are more “open-minded” compared with other areas in China. 3. they are still not experienced enough in terms of sex and relationships compared with most of the western women.
Jeff, you’re right not only gov officials go but do you KNOW what the # of bureaucrats in china is? there are over 70million CCP members alone. take a look at this site: http://simonworld.mu.nu/archives/161975.php for details of the bureaucratic waste in China.
In what ways is Chinabounder different from Muzimei? I never read her stuff, but I can think of a couple.
This chinabounder jerk is the kind of guy who ruins it for the rest of us. Us Western men are here in China, screwing the local chicks (who love us for it), and this douchenozzle has to brag about it and throw in some insults and inflammatory comments for good measure. Way to ruin a good thing, moron.
The Chinese are quite hypocritical about the whole thing, though. The Professor seems to be just as big of a pathetic man as chinabounder.
I am a chinese girl studying in England. I have not seen the blog so I cannot give a overall comment. however, I want to say that we need to be respect because it is so important to us. We are poor, we are seldom understand by the west so we are the group which is isolated most. By the way, I have to tell you we respect you before we claim it.
Hmm! It is one thing having plenty of sex, another thing blogging about it, but potentially this man is not worse than the Chinese directors of “An American in New York” series, which had a famous episode called “F**cking foreigners is a patriotic duty” showing a chinese man visiting a blonde prostitute in America and forcing her to keep shouting “I love you, I love you, I love you” during their coupling.
I would be interested in more info on Western male-Chinese male sexual relationships – but I am not going to blog about it. Suffice to say that unlike the male=femaile thing, there is an added complication in boy-on-boy action in China: the gay scene operates below the surface of life, and the chance of being blackmailed, threatened with violence, having possessions stolen and all sorts of things is quite high. So who is exploiting whom?
Respect is earned, not given, xbang.
Daxiangchang
We are actually very mad about all those whores and corruption things not just in Shanghai but in whole China, but we need some time to get it better, as all of nations in the world have their own all kinds of problems, and need to handle by themselves, not by the arbitrary USA or any other governments not by the “so-called” democracy. Another thing is quite clear that most of the shameless Chinese girls are selling themselves just for money (maybe it is not so much money for your kind of western guys but for them, yes, it is much money. So what we need to do is: getting all of Chinese rich and educated, not just some, so that no one needs to do such things to live. At the same time most of Chinese and I really despise them because they all forgot our Chinese ancient precepts: 人穷志不短—Don’t lose your ambition although you are poor! (Can anyone here tell me if this translation is right?) Why so many whores in Shanghai? Quite simple, only here there are much more rich western guys like you or some eastern guys who could be their potential customers! No one forces them to do body trading and the government is always trying to put down the whorehouses, but this is like the famous sinister gang thing, crime and violence in certain districts in the most richest and ‘democratic’ country in the world USA. Ask them why they couldn’t just clear these ‘small things’, when they even have all the power to handle almost all the things in Iraq, in North Korea, in Iran, in Middle East, in the world……. But I am sure our task is much easier than Americans! We just need time to get rid of all the problems completely, not by just closing whorehouses!
Chinese girls getting aborted is a pity, but that is not my fault and your fault (hopefully you never tried to get it on them and get them pregnant, although you are so close to the whorehouses and sympathize with those poor girls), but those thousands of ugly and filthy Chinabounders’s. They will get punished one day by God (If there is one!) The shameless girls, having sex with a foreigner or a Chinese is not a problem at all. Just don’t distort our history, intervene our politics and impose your ‘democracy’ on us! Chinese doctors are not killing Chinese babies on purpose! We are trying to deal with a historical decision-making misplay. Otherwise do you want to have other 13 hundred of millions of Chinese in the world? Please don’t use your naïve criteria to evaluate all the Chinese things and problems! Or just think over from our point of view at first!!!
I answered your questions, although how you extreme guy think us chinese is really indifferent for us! Insecure? Get out! Can’t Chinese cope with the outside world and democracy? Said by you? Then it is just shit! History will prove it!
Chinabounder simply puts into writing what is talked about in expat bars all over china and SE Asia, the girls are easy and make themselves easy.
It is also easy for someone like Chinabounder to exist in China because most of the expat community is severly lacking in moral fiber, whether in regards to sex, business or selling their country’s secrets to the demon horde in zhongnanhai. The expat community as a whole represent social rejects from western countries and bring their penchant for nasty sex and/or chronic stealing with them.
As for the reactions of the chinese male community, their skin is too thin. Grow up, China is not the center of the world, never has been and never will be. Chinese society is broken and decaying because of hundreds of years of isolation and brainwashing. Your women seek social liberation and sex is one of the first steps, it is a form of rebellion and there is nothing you can do about it.
Danwei reports that the whole Chinabounder thing might well have been a hoax: http://www.danwei.org/atom.xml
I believe it. I read the blog before it was popular and the witchhunt began (gee, I wonder how the cultural revolution took hold in this country…) and it seemed like the guy had way way too much time on his hands to write. he would write pages and pages of flowery prose, waxing effeminately about China, Chinese men, etc. It was a cross between Jane Austen and the Hardy Boys, nothing like the Henry Miller I think they were aiming for, a sort of British Henry MIller that is. Gone now though. ANd it’s a good thing we can still become outraged and repress the written word, what would China be with out stiffling opinion and comment?
krovvy,
I agree with your first comment. I don’t live in China, but even I know why many foreigners go to China and what they do in China. I also know what many Westerners think about Chinese. I try to not care about those things because it’s frustrating. It’s also hard not to have negative feelings about a certain group of people if I pay attention to those things. What bugs me is that the Chinabounder guy has to brag about it and make insulting comments on top of that. I believe that if he has no problem with writing those things, then he probably has much more disgusting views that he’s not writing about.
What foreigners do in China is none of my business, but they should at least treat Chinese with respect. I’m not saying that Westerners should admire Chinese, I’m just saying that they should treat them with basic respect by not thinking of them as whores. Respect does not have to be earned. It’s the foundation of human interactions. If a Westerner in China is not willing to treat the Chinese with respect, then he really can’t complain if he’s asked to leave. The Chinese are not hypocritical. I think any group of people, including Americans, would do the same thing.
[…] Speaking of, if you’re visiting Shanghai in the next couple of months (and you look British), don’t arrange private dinners with attractive single (or married, for that matter – I’m afraid to take my own wife to dinner in Shanghai now) Chinese women. The angry mob is on the hunt for ChinaBounder, a British retard who thinks that Shanghainese promiscuity is a license to brag about his cross-cultural sexual exploits. As the Sugar/Savage conversation on “taint” shows, a bit of humor can help people push the edges and discuss an uncomfortable subject without blowing up. Bounder (like Sugar) loves to quote Shakespeare. But Bounder clearly is crossing the line between “poking fun to allow an uncomfortable subject to be discussed” and “mocking and provocation with malicious intent”. The violent reaction was quite predictable, and the subject could have been raised with moderation and sensitivity, so Bounder has nobody to blame but himself for what he gets. […]
I’m a local.
IMHO Prof. Zhang is obviously stupid. Granted. The more pathetic thing I care is his mind just resembles at least 80% educated Chinese, including the oversea educated. How could you argue even get along with such people who are just blind about facts? Sad indeed. No difference with the anti-Japanese thing.
I don’t think “Sex in Shanghai” was a hoax, or an outright fabrication. But there’s certainly a lot of room for subjectivity and selectivity in that kind of writing, though. Chinabounder’s women are all cut from the same pattern, namely the “exotic asian female” stereotype: pretty, passive, naive (sexually and otherwise), but with latent passion waiting to be released. Chinabounder never reported them complaining, arguing, pouting, or suspecting. And of course, there is little said of the girls who were wise enough not to go to bed with him. Plus, his generalizations about Chinese men are overly broad. Ultimately, “Sex in Shanghai” trades in stereotypes and tittilation, which makes for great reading but is not an accurate reflection of Chinese society.
(posted previously in an un-related section, sorry)
I clecked on a link and read a bit of what i assume was a translated portion of the fatwa authored by the Professor.
While the blog in question may have been mildly interesting in itself, the xenophobic reaction to the blog is much more interesting to me, because of what it indicates about the current state of Chinese culture. And besides the blog, and the Chinese reaction to it, it’s also very interesting the way certain westerners in China are reacting to the anti-foreigner reaction. Some seem to be saying that it serves the guy right if he (or perhaps anybody else who might be mistaken for a British male in his 30s) gets beaten up in the street for being in the company of a Chinese female.
Besides the affrontery of someone having the audacity to actually put in writing the suggestion that a certain percentage of Chinese women are curious about, attracted to, or even prefer western men (um, excuse me, but WAS that really such a big secret?), the professor makes it quite clear that he also expects honorable Chinese males to rise up in anger over the fact that the foreigner was expousing SPLITTISM. Was I the only one that reacted to the political attacks in the professor’s fatwa?
Never seen a splittist in real life? A Splittist is anyone (inside or outside of China, Chinese or otherwise) who suggests that peaceful, democratic nations with free, open and vibrant civil societies (oh, say, Taiwan, for example) ought to be allowed to REMAIN free, open and independent, and not be continually threatened with attack by one-party states with un-elected leaders, no modern concept of civil rights or civil society, and its own inumerable and very serious domestic problems.
Am I the only one that sees similarities between this campaign and last year’s anti-Japanese campaign and the mob scenes and riots that grew out of it? Every article I read about the anti-Japanese events mentioned, of course, that Chinese are stilll upset about Japan’s wartime incursions and occupation of parts of China, the Yaku-something shrine in Japan, and the sanitized version of History being taught to Japanese students.
But what FAR too few of them mentioned are the true underlying reasons that certain parts of the Chinese establishment find it currently so expedient to encourage anti-Japanese sentiment. Japanese are understandably becoming increasingly concerned about China’s expansionist and militaristic ambitions. The true reason for the anger of Chinese officials was the fact that Japan signed agreements with the U.S. recognizing that the maintennance of peaceful cross-strait (China-Taiwan) relations is in the mutual interest of both Japan and the U.S? Is it not evident that THAT is the true reson behing the anti-Japan episodes? The official references to WWII, textbooks and the Yaku-something shrine are simply made to whip up popular anger. Those ARE important issues to History, but not to current affairs.
Any ideas on why peace is so threatening to (some) Chinese? I have a few.
Does all this make me a dangerous splittist element in China? Is it time to pack my bags? Am I showing my inablity to break out of western thinking and adapt to Chinese culture and traditions? Am I hopelessly orientalist, insensitive, unsophisticated?
I came here to better understand China and Chinese culture, but I suppose patriotic Chinese will think I have learned too much already.
To Daxiangchang
(1) Ok, let me answer your questions. First, you are not Chinese and not our Chinese “compatriots” （maybe you are a Chinese in western country. I don’t know because you didn’t tell us, if yes, 你只是一个小人而已，因为你没有真正理解中国的“天下兴亡，匹夫有责”，只会站在一边发牢骚，说风凉话而已。）. We are mad at all those whores everywhere in Shanghai because this is not from our culture. As our “sisters” and “mothers”, we protect them to avoiding the hurt and most of them are self-respect, independent, self-renewal. The Chinese women are most powerful in the world. The whores you saw are just a very small ratio of Chinese women, (maybe .0001% ?). Nobody wants his sisters and mothers to be the mean whores. I think the same idea should be in your opinions. But the positive thing is always companied with the negative one. Poverty is a serious problem in the range of the world. It is nature that the human being can be attracted by the money, beauty or something they want to have. Even in your country, the same conditions still exist. The girls are the noaml hunman begings. They have no exceptions.
Fortunately, our government has realized the poverty problem and started the struggle with it. I think you didn’t know it? Right?
By the way, did you give your money to your poor sisters and mothers or do something to help the poor in your country or in the world? If you didn’t do, you have no quality to criticize us. Don not blame us with this stupid excuse.
(2)Where did you get the fake data? Please use your head!!!! The population of China is about 1.4 billion. The net increment of population is about 12 million one year. You can calculate the percentage and then you know the data is ridiculous.
Now I tell you answer about your question. First, the traditional opinion is that the baby boy can support the whole family and the girl will marry with the person in other family. She will not be the member of this family. So every family want to have a boy baby to inherit this family. Now we realized that it is wrong and it is being changed step by step. Our government has set up the project to protect the baby girls. Second reason is that our policy about the population. I think you should know the contradiction between large population and the available sources. If you don’t know, I won’t explain it to you because you are too stupid to understand it even I do it for you.
(3)Ok, We talk about the so-called democracy.
when did your country start the democracy and when was this opinion first present? Do you know the definition of democracy? Do you think the democracy is a suitable medicine everywhere? Have a look in Iraq! This is the result of democracy!!!!! Forced! China doesn’t need this kind of Democracy.
Democracy is relative and the absolute democracy is not existed. We need some time to see, judge and (maybe) try the so-called democracy.
Chinese is a work-hard, open-mind and compatible race. China will be the most powerful country in the world. You will think the system of China is most democratic at that time.
I want to say the system of world is dependent on the power not on the democracy in the end of this reply.
Brainwashed Pinguo, you make some repugnant points, some great points
(“We are mad… because this is not from our culture.”, “Have a look
in Iraq! This is the result of democracy!”), but totally lose yourself
in mindless rhetoric – “The Chinese women are most powerful in the
world.”, “Chinese is a work-hard, open-mind and compatible race.”,
“China will be the most powerful country in the world. You will think
the system of China is most democratic at that time.”…. ??? What
fantasy land are you basing these ideas on? How many countries in the
world other than China have you lived in, integrated into to be able
to make such judgements? A number very very very close to zero, I
expect. It’s sad but true that of all the Chinese friends/aquaintences
that I know who joined the anti-Japanese protest march last year, not
one had ever been to Japan, and none had ever talked to a Japanese
person. What does this tell you, Pinguo?
Also, you are calling any Chinese woman that a western man has had sex
with a ‘whore’. That is damn insulting to a lot of great Chinese women
I know here who are happy with western guys, and it’s sweepingly
insulting to Chinese women in general. Are rich Chinese guy’s sex
partners, girlfriends or wives also ‘whores’? What about the sizeable
percentage of Chinese men who use ‘massage parlours’, have mistresses
or extra-marital girlfriends, are you also angry with them?
Lastly, you’re a bit off with your calculations. 0.0001% would mean
that 1 in every million Chinese woman has had sex with a foreigner. By
that reckoning, only 1300 (1.3 billion / 1 million) Chinese woman have
ever had sex with a foreigner. I think you’ll find that just in
Shanghai there are more (far far more) than 1300 Chinese woman who’ve
had sex with a foreigner. In fact, right at this moment, even in this
small snapshot in time, there will be more than 1300 different Chinese
girls happily sleeping in beds with a foreigner (lover, boyfriend,
husband) this week in Shanghai. Angry, Pinguo? Why? Help us
understand, give us a good reason that has perspective, is not laced
with propaganda, and is relevant to modern-day and future Shanghai.
It’s a bit of a shame that no other Chinese academic has come out to
offer some balance to Zhang’s lunatic frothings (or have they? Link
anyone?). The easily impressible who are flying into such a rage over
this issue may actually listen to another Chinese person with a high
academic status.
I’ve had casual sex relations with a number of Chinese girls here, and
have refused numerous come-ons in clubs, bars, social gatherings and
online (Chinese girls approach a man (and a damn foreigner!) for sex?
SHOCK!). They know it’s casual, I know it’s casual, much the same as
Chinablogger.
Like Chinablogger, I hear over and over and over again from Chinese
girls (whether they’re friends or more than friends) that Chinese guys
just don’t do it for them – mentally, physically, emotionally – and
that, first rumor, then experience has taught them that sexually,
western guys are generally more knowledgable and adventurous than
Chinese guys (SHOCK! HORROR! HOW CAN IT BE?!). And so they seek out
foreign guys and foreign guys who like Chinese girls seek them out. Of
course, this does not mean that 100% of Chinese girls are unsatisfied
with Chinese men, but the minority who aren’t into Chinese guys are
actively looking elsewhere for love and, yes, that word, sex.
Chinese woman are women, they have sexual needs that are not being
fulfilled as they’d like, and so some look to the more open foreigners
for fulfillment. These include experimenting students, bored married
women, late-20s career women with little spare time, etc. etc. etc.,
the same as any country in the world. Wow-wee. Is this really news? To
Chinese men, is this a sexual reawakening of Chinese women that you
are struggling to contemplate, understand and deal with?
The more I think about it the more this issue magnifies Zhang’s (and
(generalization alert) China’s?) attitude to Chinese women, and a
slight inferiority complex about the current state of China. The root
of Zhang’s fury may be more related to his unease with the reality
that CHINESE girls are horny and want sex, many married CHINESE women
are unsatisfied with their CHINESE husbands and want sex, CHINESE
girls are sometimes unsatisfied with CHINESE guys and want sex with
non-Chinese. “How can any Chinese girl be horny, unsatisfied, want
sex, not like a Chinese man?!?!”
Zhang seems to have real issues with women. Chinablogger is simply the
scapegoat that Zhang has been waiting for to unleash his insecurities
with these truths. The fact that Chinablogger is a foreigner is merely
a convenient opportunity for Zhang to really get his message out there
by playing the xenophobic card that especially appeals to aspects of
the Chinese psyche. I’d hope that the Chinese government would
publicly denounce and possibly somehow punish Zhang for his attempt to
raise such a poisonous, xenophobic, lynch-mob witchhunt on a mass
scale, but I doubt that will happen.
To the hysterical posts that ask if we’d be happy if in 25 years
Chinese guys are in our countries having sex with our women and Queen
Elizabeth…. well, if Queen Elizabeth is a consenting partner, a
woman who may even have chased after you, go straight ahead, you might
have some fun!
As a final note, we should realise that many of Chinabloggers comments
or insights are comments we hear mirrored across expat forums and
echoed in restaurants, bars, clubs, get-togethers, workplaces,
whatever, where there are ‘outsiders’ trying to adjust to life in the
Zhong.
The truth hurts.
Megan, are you assuming you are closer the facts?
Prof Zhang and Chinabounder are doing the same thing, hunting.
To DXC
If you really think you are a Chinese, instead of criticizing how bad China’s problems are, you should
help China by contributing your good ideas on how to improve the situation and work towards
ultimately solving these problems. It is easy for you to criticize from afar while most Chinese people are
working very hard to solve these problems. So much improvements and progress have been
made over the years through Chinese people’s hard working. I understand that you may be too busy
to bother finding out the truth.
Pinguo: .0001% are prostitutes? That’s around 15 prostitues in Shanghai. You know it isn’t true, why say it?
If Chinabounder is a Briton, he should be reminded of the old British saying about American GI’s stationed in Britain—that they were “over-rich, over-sex, and over-here”. Thousands of British women married American soldiers in order to get away from their dreary little island. There’s an old Richard Gere movie that portrays this period of WW2 history.
BTW, Richard Gere is starring in a new movie titled “Expat”. Fortunately, it takes place in India.
Chinabounder is a dull idiot.
All his stories repeat this way,
met a girl, flirted with her, seduced her, shot from different directions, kadakadakada…
Except for the names, the story repeats itself every time.
I can also sense his views about china is kind of feminine.
He said 95% of his friends are female.
stereotyped and stupid.
Lost:
How could you know Pinguo hasn’t talked with Japanese about the history?Most of the chinese want to get along with the Japanese,maybe as some Japanese want it too, but what will happen when some other Japanese just never appreciate the chinese didn’t request war indemnity,even never respect the feeling of chinese and Asians who got deeply hurt in that War. Koizumi’s shrine visits and tampering the textbooks are most unacceptable things for the people who forgave the maleficence of japanese people in that war and the war ciminals. So why can’t you boob understant the anti-Japanese protest?
We did it not only in China but also in all over the world, we will continue if the Japanese keep going on hurting our feelings!
About your nonsense there i have no interest to discuss with you,but i am woundering what the hell you are doing in China, hanging around where thousands of whores appear, going from clubs to bars to find some shameless girls, cheating on them, satisfying your curiousity and your beastliness? What difference between you and Chinabounder? You are even not qualified at all to discuss and appraise the things here.
No chicanery! It is truth, though it hurts!
[Editor’s Note: this comment has been edited to remove personal attacks and offensive language only, but it is still likely to offend]
Pimguo, let’s assue some facts.
1. Chinese girls want western men not only because they are curious (how whites DO it?), but mostly because they’re tired of spineless, immature chinese guys, who until now, bringing girl/friend to mom for approval. Yes, it still exist. Witnessed it many times even in Shanghai.
2. All, and I repeat – all chinese girls/women I’ve talked – and its many – were cheated by their chinese husbands/boyfriends. Chinese men historcally promiscuiting. It was, it is and always will be. So, chinese guys, buy a mirrors and look on yourself first, before blaming poor chinese girls, who mostly want TO BE LOVED, not cheated. For now – most of you are just trash.
3. China is great country, but, please, will somebody tell me, why suc a country with 5000 years old culture – still in total filth, and 260 years old USA is country #1 in the World? Maybe because we don’t live with mom til gray balls, but have our own life from young age, and we are free to search, make mistakes, but learn from it, and create progress? Maybe it’s because of freedom, that is unknown in China?
4. China will be most powerful country in the World? DREAM ON. Tell me, what chinese invented, except paper and gunpowder? NOTHING. All you can is – to steal, steal everything from pirate software to hi-tech technology. Country of thieves, nothing more. Remember famus chinese scientist, who bragged of fantastic microchip in Shanghai? All his inventions were LIES. Slap in te face. Chinese spies are all around the World, stealing everything.
5. Chinabounder is nothing special. Almost every western man had same experience with chinese girls. Just they didn’t blog/brag about it. Leave him alone. He’s not better, not worse than any other foreigner in China. Most (and I mean it) chinese men seducing and shagging chinese girls much more, just doing it in much dirty ways. At least CB do it with some romantism, and trust me- after him any of these “poor” girls will never ever even to think about having relationships with chinese man. Don’t want to brag, but I’ve heard it by myself too. Are we, westerns, supermen in bed? I don’t think so. We just treat girls in different way, equally, and with respect.
6. Don’t cry about “lowered” chinese girls who doing westerns. They are much happier than many others, who sit at home, when husband drink with friends or visit massage saloons. I don’t think they do it for money. They just want to know more. And like chinese gal is exotic to western man- white man is exotic to chinese girl. They learn a lot from us. Many useful things.
7. About Japan. Yes, it’s horrible, that japanese killed 300,000 chinese in Nanjing. But why chinese people forgot, that their God Mao killed more than 50 ILLIONS of innocent chinese in Cultural Revolution???? One chinese man said to me- well… everyone has a right to make mistake. Excuse me – 50+ millions killed – a mistake????? And te portraits of this mass murderer #1 on Earth still on Tyananmen Square and on chinese money. SHAME ON YOU, CHINA!!! You telling me that you need time to get better? YOU HAD 5000 years to become better!!! What did you do for 5000 years? Killing each other and shagging your sisters and mothers!!! And now you blaming whole world for your own idiotism??? 1,3 billion of people in poverty – is it our fault??? Why you blame us, westerns, for your problems??? Why can’t you fix your social system that elderly chinese will have peace and deserved rest in old age? Why need to give birth to many kids to suck their money later? SHAME!!!
Japan is much more cultured country than China, no doubt about it. And most of Japanese have no idea, what their grandfathers did 70 years ago. Why you hate them? You ae not nationalists, you are faschists! You hate everyone but chinese. And worst thing is – you even don’t want to understand, how stupid you are!
Why I’m so angry? Because I love China and I will the best to this fantastic country. Also I wish to all chinese – wake up and don’t be brainwashed anymore. Then, maybe, after 50 years, World will respect you. For now – you didn’t earn any respect.
If Chinabounder is a hoax concocted by 4 people, including a Japanese and two Chinese males, then Mark Karr really killed JonBenet.
Chinabounder’s pretty clever if he can put disinformation up that far on the chain though (the disinformation was posted on CNN).
Just another lynching by Chinese men filled with inferiority complex or 2 concerning foreigners shagging with their pure traditional women. Gag me please.
Remember the fiasco over Japanese men’s partying with local prostitutes in Zhuhai couple of years ago and how much angst it brought out? I was in Dongguan at the time and it was so common to find prostitutes in KTVs, hotel (just call front desk), hotel sauna, street and barbershops… What’s the big deal? It really comes down to “WE THE LOCAL CHINESE MEN DO NOT WANT FOREIGNERS TO FXCK OUR GIRLS”. XENOPHOBIC as usual.
I for 1 found shagging Chinese girls in mainland to be bit of eye opening experience having been to China 3-4 times per year from 1998 to 2004 on business. What surprised me was that most girls were open to sex and initiated it which I didn’t find in other Asian countries as I did business thru out asia from mid 80’s to 2004. This is mainland PRC phenomenon and not all overseas Chinese deal. They knew I was married and all but I was proposed couple of times and these 2 girls wanted 1 things – sex. I asked few girls I meet at hotel and at host company like secretaries and I shagged most of the girls I dated. Again I did not see this in other Asian countries. One secretary even complained that my dick was not too big in rather matter of fact manner. First time I heard such utter in my life.
Another aspect was that Chinese men’s sexual approach in bed was bit boring especially when it came to oral sex. I guess Chinese men like other men like to receive but do not give. With some hesitation girls let me give them oral sex and it has been bliss to see them enjoy it so much and even ask for it. I’ve heard earful of complaints about their boyfriend and even husband’s lack of prowess of sort but I think what Chinese women craved most is foreign man’s sincere interest in them and appreciation and treating them like a lady. So not much sex per say but how a women would like to be treated.
Back to yet another moronic lynching in China, alas, if those calling for some kind a justice only looked at themselves in the mirror…
Luther, I appreciate your patriotism towards your adopted country, but there’s no need to put down China. Four hundred years ago, helpless Pilgrims were saved from starvation by natives who shared with them the abundance of the America’s flora and fauna. Who knows what America will be like 400 years from now.
Dear Sonagi, thank you for comment! But, please, would you be so kind to tell me, where exactly I’m wrong? I’m not putting China down, China doing it very successfully by itself. And, again, don’t take me wrong – I do NOT hate China, I love this country. I visit China 3-4 times a year, and when I come back home to California – I miss it. So, I do not hate China. I hate what THEY did to China. If you know, what I mean…
Yes, native indians saved poor guys from Mayflower, so? God bless them.
What will be America 400 years from now? I can tell you what definitely will be America 40 years from now. Appendix to Mexico state.
Sam, Pinguo, Chinese Girl,
My intention was not to trash China. It was to show that one of the main reasons some Chinese men give for wanting to kick out Chinabounder–protecting Chinese women from immorality–is ridiculous in a country of out-of-control whorehouses and female abortions. In China, for every 100 women, there are 120 men whereas in a normal country it’s around 100-100. In other words, 108 million girls have been killed through abortions (20 out of 240 is 8.3%; 8.3% into 1.3 billion people is 108 million). Just check this out:
http://www.euthanasia.com/china-ra.html
This is NOT about population control since equal population control would NOT kill more girls than boys. Millions of Chinese girls have been killed by Chinese men OR are working in whorehouses–and some Chinese men are pissed off only at a foreigner for having sex with Chinese girls and writing about it. How stupid is that?!!
Saving said that, however, I find it laughable that some laowai men actually think it’s cuz they “treat” women “well” in China or are good in bed, that’s why they get laid a lot! If that were the case, they would be studs back home–which I SERIOUSLY SERIOUSLY doubt. I’d say with most laowai men who bang a lot in CHina, it’s 80% economics, 15% the white-guy exoticism (if, of course, the laowai is a white guy), and 5% everything else. Again, most laowais don’t exactly look like Brad Pitt, and I find it really funny that they can delude themselves into thinking they do from the perspective of Chinese women.
Luther,
“I can tell you what definitely will be America 40 years from now. Appendix to Mexico state.” That’s a bunch of crap. Second generation Mexcian Americans are, for most intents and purposes, Americans: they speak English as their primary language, legally work in American jobs, etc. All this brouhaha about Mexicans overrunning America is silliness stirred up by idiots whose own ancestors would’ve been kept out had Americans back then adopted their ideas–ESPECIALLY with those troublesome Irishmen whose descendants became such fine “real” Americans as Pat Buchanan, Bill O’Reilly, and Sean Hannity.
Editor’s Note:
I get the impression that some of you are posting comments here specifically to provoke an emotional reaction from any Chinese readers. I have been very tolerant until now, but I will no longer be approving those kinds of comments on this thread. It’s called trolling. So if your comment doesn’t show up, you know why.
Do your China bashing elsewhere; there are other websites for that.
Correction – 120 millions is a serious voting power.
Dear John, we don’t bash China, we bash idiots, doesn’t atter, what nationality they are.
Chinesebounder 这仅仅是一种社会现象，Blog 的出现只是告诉我们这个社会问题的存在，让人更应该明白的是，上海女性内心里不够健全成熟的一面。不管所有被接触的女孩怀着怎样的心理与其接触，但是，我们女人必须透过现象看本质，学会更多的自尊、自爱和自我保护。整个社会是男人的社会，无论女人你自己有如何强的承受力，只要多一次经历，就会多一次伤痛。遏制自身的虚荣、浅薄和贪婪，失利的将是贪婪于你的野兽男人，希望众多的女人不再是虚荣欲望之下的牺牲品，作一个知识女性，作一个自爱的女性，作一个热爱自己的女性。
笔者在上海曾经参加过一个非常正式的Party，最让我反感的还是那些年轻的、甚至是非常美丽的中国女孩，她们过分的热情，让我感觉望而生畏：在那一次聚会中，只有那几位中国的女孩无休止地喧哗且过分热情地拥抱每一位老外，其余的老外都是3个一群，5个一伙地聚在一起，轻声言语交流，你可以清晰地欣赏那迷人的背景音乐，但是那几位女孩子并不是给我安静的好感觉，开放是一种行为的进步，但是必须做到适可而止，文化是一种内涵，并不是肤浅的所谓的“开放”，也许v，“文化”就是上海开放的女孩所缺少的。也是上海的女孩子需要改进的一面。
To those who have criticised the Chinese on this issue:
I reckon you lot are a bunch of filthy hypocrites. You are not the
ones insulted by Chinabounder, the Chinese are, so what gives you
the moral high ground to criticise the Chinese? I’m sure you lot
all think you are better than the Chinese, but unfortunatelly the
Chinese don’t think so. If you lot feel it’s perfectly fine for
someone to insult your own people in the most derogatory way, well,
that’s your problem, just don’t expect the Chinese to feel the
same way you do, and don’t you dare telling the Chinese how they
they should feel — you only come across the Chinese as arrogant
jerks.
I bet every single one of you has criticised China for the lack
of information freedom. Well, China has unblocked blogspot — that’s
what you wanted, wasn’t it? So why are you bashing the Chinese especially
now that they can get more information? Is it because they haven’t reacted
the way you wanted them to? Were you stupid enough to expect the Chinese
to welcome every bit of previously blocked information with open arms?
You didn’t realise freedom of information could possibly piss off the
Chinese? You didn’t think access to more information could lead to
negative reactions? Hey, don’t complain about the smell if you want to
stir shit up!
Some of you also like to put on the “I love China but I hate the
stupid Chinese” mask … well, no Chinese is buying it for the simple
reason that they’ve see you spend 99% of your posts bashing China with
imaginary “facts” and fucked-up logic that you just pulled out of your arses.
China is not your country and Chinese are not your people, you cannot
remake China the way you want, the Chinese don’t share your cultural
backgrounds and the Chinese don’t worship your Gods. Most of the things
that amuse you probably won’t amuse the Chinese. You are all guests
to China, so the least you can do is show your hosts some respect, as
the Chinese would do when the situation is reversed, or just pack your
bag and stay away from China.
Public Servant: We’re commenting more on the anti-foreigner backlash than Chinabounder’s blog itself.
Jeff: Who are “we”? If you had bothered to read my post, it would have been easy for you to realize that I was criticizing the hypocritical comments on the reaction of the Chinese — yes I’m criticizing your criticisms.
Public Servant: Your first paragraph was an expression of just how insulting Chinabounder is. The rest of your posting was nonsense with no real meaning or argument, just inane anti-foreigner rhetoric. That was my reading, anyway.
Jeff: Congrats! You’ve won the championship for missing the point. The only purpose of the first paragraph of my first post was to point out how ridiculous it was for the hypocrites to criticise the Chinese for being angry. It was ridiculous because the hypocrites were bashing the Chinese who were the victim in this situation. It was ridiculous because the hypocrites tried to tell the Chinese how they should feel when the Chinese themselves were insulted. If you still don’t get it, I give up.
I think maybe what bothered some people is the hypocritical reaction of Chinese readers complaining about ‘racist’ comments with racist comments and violent threats, some of which were directed at foreigners in general.Another point was that no one would care about it if this guy was Chinese.
每一个人都是一个独立的个体，有善性也有恶性。倘使那个“老外流氓”就是属于“恶性”这一类人，何足以用你的舆论行为而博得他人的改变呢？事情已经发生了，通过发生的事情来分析事情的本质，也许要比指责来得更有效。不管怎么说，我肯定舆论唤醒“人性的道德和良知“。但如一个人真是君子，应该严格要求自己，而不象小人一样严格要求他人。问题的关键应该由谁来改变？应该如何去抵制这种低级的诱惑？应该如何学会去分析和判断？
我的观点并不统筹全部人的意见，只是从某一个侧面来看待罢了。
每一个人都可以追随自己的感觉，但是不要过于浮躁；学会静心思考，也许就能轻松避免”灾害“。
This issue really shows the differing attitudes towards sex in the west and in China. While most westerners range from mildly offended to outwardly suporrtive, most local Chinese range from mildly offended to murderous outrage. While picking up someone for casual sex is normal in the west, it’s still (traditionally) seen as a very bad thing in China.
Make no mistake, if this was about a foreigner making teapots with his students or ex-students, there would be no uproar because no Chinese people see making teapots as wrong. However, sex is still seen as wrong, dirty and ‘holy’ by many locals.
It all depends on attitudes towards sex (and underlying attitudes towards women and freedom).
July, you’re right in some points, but the major problem here is the reaction of chinese on this blog. Imagine, what will happen, if chinese man, who works and lives in USA or UK, will post such a blog? You really think americans will demand his head and balls? I don’t think so. I quess such a blog will get a few humorous comments, nothing more. Guy, you was lucky enough to laid down with white chick? God bless. Who the **** cares… But in China it became outrageous. People demand blood. For what? He did not break any law. Is it immoral, what he did? Depend on personal opinions. I woudn’t shake his hand, definitely. But also I wouldn’t judge him so harshly. The other side of his blog is about China as a country with insecure men, and it is absolute true. Let’s invite a few dozens of chinese females (your friends, foe example)and ask their honest opinion. And, please, next time write in English, because not everyone can read Putong Hua. Even if your English is not perfect, I don’t think anyone will complain, most important is to know, what do you want to say.
Well stated Luther.
Racist xenophibic insecure immature cyberlynching over 1 foreigner sex-capade with local girls… WTF? No big deal. BIG DEAL however is Racist xenophibic insecure immature cyberlynching. It really shows the narrow minded insecurity of typical Chinese men in PRC.
I for 1 heard earful from local girls about their insensitive, sexually inept cheating BF/husband and their reason to turn to western men for their companionship filled with yes sex. No big deal. I traveled all over Asia since mid 80’s and let me say PRC is the easiest country to get laid and country where I heard most complaints about sexually inept men…
Public Servant:
hypocrites. You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
hyp·o·crite(n.) – a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings.
I think we’re all quite clear on what we think. How is it hypocritical?
I think that it is much more hypocritical for married Chinese men to go to KTV and hair salons. To say that Chinese womens’ virtue is inviolate, and yet carouse with Chinese prostitutes.
Oh, I don’t think that we are telling Chinese people how to feel. We are telling people who live in developed countries how to feel. Chinese people often tell me that they want China to become a modern, developed country. Well, this is what it’s like. People in developed countries do not form lynch mobs because somebody writes that men like to have sex with women.
Duke, unfortunately it does seem to be a big deal to traditional Chinese views on sex and women, whether we think those views are backwards or not. The problem seems to be that, while half of the current young generation have opened up considerably regarding attitudes and sexual behavior, the other half have not opened up. They’re finding it hard to comprehend, as traditionalists everywhere do. Even those who have opened up still have a certain degree of ingrained tradition and awareness of how Chinese society still sees this sexual behavior as ‘bad’, and this comes accross in Chinese girls (and guys) carefully hiding their sexcapades from friends and family.
That leaves the sexually active and open among us (exapts and locals) in a difficult position – we’re all having a great time with this sexual openness, but the other half of the country are dead against it. And here, “live and let live” ain’t the most prescribed ideology.
Really, this is about attitudes to sex, women and power.
[That last sentence should read ‘…sex, women and freedom.’]
krovvy
I know exactly what a hypocrite is — it’s a person who does not practise what he preaches, it’s a person who uses double standard. In this case, the word “hypocrite” describes precisely the behaviors of the people who have come here to criticise the Chinese. They criticise the angry and occasionally violence-threatening reactions from the Chinese, yet they laugh with and approve of the racist insults against the Chinese people. If this is not the behavior that typifies hypocrites, I don’t know what is.
The anger of the Chinese towards Chinabounder is never caused by the fact that he’s been sleeping with Chinese women — you see heaps of male foreigners walking around China with Chinese girls and none of them seem to be in danger of bodily harm, well at least before Chinabounder. The anger is caused by the fact that Chinabounder openly professes his racist views on the Chinese women and men. You’d have to be blind not to see this.
It is indeed hypocritical and shameful for married people to pursue any type of extra-marital affairs — at least as far as the Chinese are concerned. This is why Chinese people who engage in these affairs are always looked down upon and shamed by their peers. None of the adulters would have bragged about it in public, because people will harshly criticise them and they will suffer social and economical repercussions. If extra-marital affairs and racism are encouraged in your countries, then that’s your problem, but don’t expect the Chinese to agree with you in their own country.
Actually you are. By insulting the Chinese who got angry because they were insulted, you are trying to tell the Chinese how they should feel. Denying this only makes you look even more hypocritical.
Well then you are doing it in the wrong way because I only see you acting superior towards the Chinese … or is this what you are trying to tell “people who live in developed countries”?
I very much doubt that the Chinese version of a “modern, developed country” is the same as yours. You see, racism is not encouraged in China, neither are extra-marital affairs.
Would people in developed countries get angry when they are the victims of racism? You’ve never heard of a lynching mob in a western country? Oh, if you guys are so loved all over the world, I wonder why it is that the terrorists are so interested in blowing people and shit up in your countries? Just a thought.
I think Public Servant’s wish is to never allow anyone, especially a foreigner, to criticize China while IN China; otherwise, it would be not only insulting to Chinese “hosts” but “racist” to boot! Haha. Personally, I think if the Chinese want to join the developed world, they need to first rid themselves of people like Pervant Servant: men who possess such an incredible sense of inferiority–economic, sexual, racial, etc.–that it’s impossible for them to take any criticism, much less learn from it. And I predict as long as the majority of Chinese people think like this guy, China will ALWAYS be a poor country.
Public Servant, I don’t think most are angry about some of the Chinese reaction, more that we find the reaction over-the-top, a bit scary and ever so slightly hilarious. The hypocrisy starts with the Professors wild lynch-cry outburst on one foreigner espousing ‘unusual’ opinions and home truths about China that are hard to admit (issue of face, here?). Meanwhile, far worse crap is going on on his doorstep. Like it or not, that’s a pretty important point.
It’s nonsense to agree that it’s possible, because of technological, social, economical advances, that western countries currently have better technology, better economic systems, better standards of environmentalism, … yet deny with venom that western men, with better sex education, more experience and openness, may generally be better lovers (not only noticed by western guys, but also by the Chinese girls). I understand the primal reaction to be angry at such a possibility, but to describe such truths as racist against Chinese men is sadly way over-the-top.
Public Servant, I agree with you on many other of your points.
So do we cower back into fast-becoming-outdated Chinese traditions because the hanger-ons are outraged, or do we join in with the increasingly open younger Chinese attitudes? As long as there are Chinese girls who prefer a foreigner’s attitudes, outlook, body, openness, lifestyle and sex to a traditional Chinese guy, and as long as they are open to my advances (they are, and many will do the chasing), I’m going to keep dating Chinese girls.
Luther Says:
This is just your cultural value. Just because Chinese guys bring their girlfriends home for approval, they’re immature and spineless? Give me a break. You’re just looking for examples to support your racist views.
Alright, I got a mirror and looked at myself. I’m perfectly fine. You, I’m not so sure. You actually think that most Chinese guys cheat on their wives or girlfriends? I was born in Hong Kong, and none of the guys I know cheated on their wives. Gee, I wonder why. I know! That’s because the only Chinese you know are those you met in bars or clubs.
Great, now you’re just putting up a list of things about China that you look down on. I can do the same about any country, but I won’t because I can think and talk like a civilized person. You think China is a great country? Oh come on now. You think Chinese women are great, but you don’t like China. If you have the audacity to write a prejudiced comment like this, then don’t make these silly attempts to appear politically correct.
“NOTHING”, “ALL”, “EVERYTHING”. Geez, you picked all the absolute terms. You must be a genius at picking up universal rules. Any educated person knows that Chinese invented more than gunpowder and paper. Also, if the only problem you can find with Chinese is privacy, then I think the Chinese are pretty good compared to you. You’re an ignorant idiot who doesn’t even know to make a strong argument.
I’m sorry to say this, but you’re really a discredit to your race. You’re bragging about your sexual ability? What are you, a high school student? Fine, I’ll let you have this. You obviously suck intellectually, so I’ll let you have the comfort of feeling that you’re physically better.
Alright, fine. I have nothing against Chinese sleeping with foreigners. I feel sorry for those sleeping with you. That’s all.
This is off topic. Also, I have nothing against Japan. Anybody can be my friend as long as he’s not a racist idiot.
Don’t feel the need to respond to this, because I don’t plan to return to this blog. John is a great person. I’ve read many blogs, and I think he’s one of the foreign blog writers who actually likes China and its culture. However, these comments are just a poison to my brain. If I keep reading them, I’ll just get more negative feelings. For those of you who are esctatic are your sexual ability, have fun!!
By the way, Da Xiangchang, I’ve read this blog for several years, and you never fail to post comments. Can you stop posting racist comments about Hispanics and Blacks? As a fellow Chinese American, I really felt embarrassed by you. If you have to vent them out, can you at least start your own blog or write them on a less popular website? Good luck!
Bernard,
I don’t blame you for not coming back to these comments (the debate is getting a little tiresome), but I hope you’re not writing the whole blog off because of this blog post or the comments herein.
I’m getting tired of moderating and editing all the comments for this post, so the comments are going to be closed soon.
Da Xiangchang
I know you’ve lost your argument when you start attacking me with personal insults and non-sense. Oh wait, you never had an argument to begin with.
I’ve never said that foreigners shouldn’t criticise China, no matter where they are, therefore I cannot be responsible for your own rather strange imagination.
If you are here to tell me that there is nothing racist about Chinabounder, then I guess there is nothing that I will ever agree with you.
You seem to think you are superior than people like me who get angry when being insulted, well you couldn’t be more wrong. I don’t get angry, I get even. I would never do anything to put down other people so that I would feel superior, and like wise I don’t expect other people to put me down either. You may think you are superior, but the way you behave makes you look exactly the opposite.
Lost
Who are the “most”? Why should they feel angry? Did the Chinese insult them? Or do the “most” just don’t like the fact the Chinese got angry when they felt insulted? Do the Chinese have the right to get angry when they are insulted?
Is that why you decided to insult the Chinese a bit more so that they would listen to your reason and be “nice” again? Is more insults the the only way you can think of to put your ideas across? If you answer yes, then I’d have to say you guys seriously lack imagination. What exactly is an acceptable reaction to you? You think some civilized discussion is going to stop a racist like Chinabounder to drop his racist attitude and apologize? Your lack of understanding of the Chinese psychic is why you find the Chinese reaction “over-the-top, a bit scaryy and ever so slightly hilarious”. and it is your problem that the Chinese reactions in this case are not acceptable to you.
Sure, there are wars going on, terrorists to hunt down and a planet to cool down, does that mean people shouldn’t have the time to be angry when they are insulted? Should we just ignore smaller evils and focus on the big bad? I don’t see your point here.
Well, given the fact that the teenager pregnancy rates, divoce rates and home violence rates in the “developed world” are higher than in China, you’d have to be a lot more convincing to make me believe you on this one. Oh, since when do sex education, sexual experiences and openness (to what exactly?) make people better lovers? Better whores maybe, but not lovers.
There is a very clearly defined line between constructive criticism and racist insult, if you cannot tell where the line is, that is your problem.
Luther Says:
July, you’re right in some points, but the major problem here is the reaction of chinese on this blog. Imagine, what will happen, if chinese man, who works and lives in USA or UK, will post such a blog? You really think americans will demand his head and balls? I don’t think so. I quess such a blog will get a few humorous comments, nothing more. Guy, you was lucky enough to laid down with white chick? God bless. Who the **** cares… But in China it became outrageous. People demand blood. For what? He did not break any law. Is it immoral, what he did? Depend on personal opinions. I woudn’t shake his hand, definitely. But also I wouldn’t judge him so harshly. The other side of his blog is about China as a country with insecure men, and it is absolute true. Let’s invite a few dozens of chinese females (your friends, foe example)and ask their honest opinion. And, please, next time write in English, because not everyone can read Putong Hua. Even if your English is not perfect, I don’t think anyone will complain, most important is to know, what do you want to say.
By the way, the Chinese are not “lynching” that Chinabounder guy. You guys are adding that word to make the Chinese seem more irrational. The word “lynch” belongs to white racists like Mr. Luther, please don’t push that word onto us.
Also, if a Chinese guy writes a blog similar to Chinabounder’s in Los Angeles or New York, he’d be fine. That’s because those are multiracial cities. It’d be a different story if he writes that blog in Arkansas or other Southern states. In some Southern small towns, that hypothetical Chinese will literally be lynched.
John,
Thank you for your response. I’m sorry for getting a little emotional, it’s just that the discussion is getting a little inflammatory. I really think you have a great blog here, but in the future, I guess I’ll avoid reading the comments 🙂
Public Servant, your anger is inhibiting your ability to see any post other than some kind of attack on China or Chinese people, and that’s a shame because you are otherwise making some great points. Less of the personal attacks on me and some more mutal understanding, how’s that sound?
You say that I have overstepped the line and am making racist comments, which disturbs me. Please be careful labeling anyone a racist. Can you please explain where in my previous 3 posts I have insulted China or Chinese and been racist? Really, I’ve had quite a few insights already from this thread, and I’m genuinely interesting in better understanding Chinese thinking and knowing the thickness of locals’ skin.
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When I was talking about ‘doorstep’ I was refering to Shanghai, to China. Sure, the professor has a right to feel insulted, you are 100% correct. However, it IS hypocritical finger-pointing at foreigners when the same and far worse sex-related crap is, and has for many years, been going on in this city and country that could use Chinese academia’s energy, yet is being ignored. I think this, and Chinese attitudes to Japan, explains why a lot of foreigners have issues with the reaction to Chinablogger. “People in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones”, or so the saying goes.
“Better whores maybe, but not lovers.” I assume that you agree that education, experience and openness (to try new things) will make someone more knowledgable, adept and multi-versed at something… but this does not apply to sex? If these things aren’t what help us vastly improve from bumbling teenagers having unsatisfying sex, then what is it?
Lost
So what do you call comments which not only support an obviously racist person but also dismiss the anger of the Chinese who are the victim of the racism? Oh, I’m not angry, I just wanna get even.
As far as I can tell, I haven’t called you a racist. I’ve also pointed out to you why I found your attitude towards the reaction of the Chinese to be insulting, it’s up to you to understand it. I don’t know which country you come from, but in China, if you tell a victim that he’s being ridiculous for being angry with the offender, it’s almost always interpreted as an insult.
What exactly are these worse sex-related crap you keep talking about? Are they actually worse than some one who’s actually proud of seducing married woman of a particular country for sex so that he can insult both the women and the men of that country?
I feel the Chinese attitudes towards Japan has been somewhat immature, like I said, I don’t get angry, I get even. However, this does not mean the Chinese are not entitled to their anger towards Japan. If you haven’t put yourself in the shoes of the Chinese, you will never be able to understand why.
In the case of Chinabounder, he’s the only one living in the glass house, and he put himself there willingly.
Excuse me, but exactly how old are you? I could understand your attitude that sex equals love if you were under the age of 16, otherwise you really need to grow up. Remember, there cannot be love without respect, and Chinabounder has made it very clear that he has no respect for Chinese women or men.
我理解你们的意思，懂得你们的含义，只是，我是一位女人，我只是用女性惯有的思维来看待这件事情，并且给那些受到伤害的女孩一个更好的建议，希望她们不再有年轻的错误；也是为了让所有关心此类事件的的女性朋友得到一些有用的帮助和信息，不再去犯类事的错误。谢谢Luther的建议和意见，我只是觉得这些可能会唤醒某些女孩子多梦的心。
Luther:
I am so sorry I am poor my writing English. It’s so difficult for me to express what the feeling is. I comprehend your meaning, knowing your meanings. As I am a women, I just use a female thinking to treat this affair, and want to give the suffering from harmful girl’s a better supporting, I hope they no longer make a young mistake; It is also for letting all concern this kind of affairs of the female friends get some useful helps and information, no longer making a type of matter of mistake.。Thank you for Luther’s opinion, I just feel my opinion may awaken some girl’s heart that is full of nice dreams.
Bernard Says:
I don’t approve your standpoint.
不能简单地认为是“小偷”，对不起，您这次大错特错了，这反倒正是印证了中国人的聪明。你知道什么是相互交流吗？你知道什么是学他人所长吗？已经被考证，甚至被论证的很清楚的问题，不再小需要我们多化精力再去作研究，何不把精力投入到新的研究中去呢！你的观点实在太狭隘了。学有所长，你知道吗？
I am a foreigner, have been in China almost 4 years now. I think the Chinese people are wonderful, very interesting culture, beautiful scenery, very kind, gracious people. The food variety is astounding, as well as delicious. I have been treated very well by almost all I have met and I have traveled extensively in China. People the world over have trouble with relationships and the global shift in population. What needs to be done, and it has been mentioned by several, is that we need to learn how to respect each other and treat people with dignity, regardless of class, race or gender and work to make the world in general a better place to live. All of us will be much better served for doing so 🙂
Da Xiangchang
Let them brag and have their moment of dream in China. Most of them are bound to face the reality back in home.
July9008:
Regarding to your post no. 118, the comment is not posted by Bernard, he’s just quoting a comment made by someone else previously, you can have a check on this page. I’m doing this is so the innocent won’t be blamed mistakenly.
As for your comment on the invention, you have a good point that it’s wise to use proven technology and method to do things, so people won’t waste resource to invent the same thing again. But do you realise that while you can use other people’s inventions or patents, at the same time, you have to pay them in term of loyalty fees in order to use the technology? So as to reward all the effort and resources that people had put in to create all these things. If no such incentive in place, how will people be motivated to come out new inventions for the better living of the world?
Public Servant, it seems that olive branches have no effect with those who are just trying to ‘get even’. My door is always open.
“There is a very clearly defined line between constructive criticism and racist insult, if you cannot tell where the line is, that is your problem.”
That strongly suggests that I’m making or fully agreeing with racist insults. I’ll assume that I’ve misunderstood that statement, or that your ‘get even’ crusade is getting in the way of your judgement and interpretation of my comments again.
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“Excuse me, but exactly how old are you? ….”
Again, personal attacks used to dodge the question instead of addressing the issue.
Absolutely nowhere, nowhere, have I or anyone else that I know equated that love=sex, which is clearly a ridiculous statement. My question, and this sub-issue is not about love, it’s about sex. Sex is often best with someone you love, I totally agree. However, to suggest that there cannot be good sex without some deeper love and respect, AND that great sex grows automatically when there is love, though, is frankly not true, you’re really clutching at straws with that one. Billions of people around the world are having good and great sex before love, and tonnes of couples in love have hopeless sex lives. Love is one ingredient, but is far from the sum total that makes great sex, as you are suggesting. So, instead of dodging my question, and without answering with another personal attack or “it’s up to you to understand it” cop-out, please, I’d love to hear your explanation of how better education, more experience and greater openness have no influence on getting significantly better in bed.
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‘Seducing married women’ was one of his exploits, the rest were unmarried, all were consenting, and in most cases the girls did as much, if not more, chasing as him. It’s a leap to think that he was specifically doing this only “so that he can insult both the women and the men of that country”. His main intention was to get laid, as was the girls’! His writing about this, and his comments about Chinese guys (based on what was coming out of the girls’ mouths again and again – don’t shoot the messenger!) and Japan were insights/opinions that I guess he knew some would take offense at. That’s the naughty part, in China at least.
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Do you really rate this private, lawful sex between consenting adults (that, yes, you and many locals find to be awful and insulting) as worse than tens (hundreds?) of thousands of prostitues, many taken against their will to work in the massages parlors that litter this city and others all over the nation? Worse than child pornography? Worse than years of violent and sexual abuse at home? Worse than millions of husbands repeatedly cheating on their wives with mistresses and prostitutes? Worse than sexual child abuse at home? Please don’t pretend that all of these aren’t happening right here right now. (And yes, these things happen in other countries).
Do you think that the sexual relations between Chinablogger and the girls he was with is the worst of such a list, or even close to being the worst? If so, I’d like to understand why you think so (seriously). If not, why isn’t anyone giving a damn about those other things, while (yes, it’s insulting to many locals and they have a right to be insulted) being in uproar about Chinablogger? The relative levels of public outrage accross these issues is pretty disproportionate, wouldn’t you agree?
Well said Bernard!
This topic was the first time i read a Blog in English, before i didn’t know about the Chinabounder issue at all. I really wanted to know how the foreigners in China feel about China,Chinese, kind of interesting. Somehow it ended up i found out so many foreigners have prejudice against China and the Chinese, really shocked! It is so frustrating that i can’t help getting so negative feeling about those foreigners……
John:
I get the feeling that you are a bit more tolerant to those who are bashing the Chinese than to the Chinese who are telling the truth like me?
Is this true?
I’m starting to get tired of your poor excuses. I find it annoying when people try to defend what’s obviously wrong.
How do you know what his intention was, without knowing him? Are you Chinabounder himself? Do you know him personally? Or are you just interrupting his writing the way you want to?
So now you are saying he’s just relating what the Chinese girl said about the Chinese men and he had absolutely no intention to insult anyone? Can you come up with a poorer excuse than this?
Bernard,
“Can you stop posting racist comments about Hispanics and Blacks?” WTF?!! Reread my comments about “Hispanics” on this topic carefully. If defending Mexican immigration into America is racist, well, you’ve got me, dude.
And I only compared the Chinese to blacks cuz in this case, it’s ABSOLUTELY TRUE. A lot of blacks in America have like a knee-jerk reaction to any criticism so they’ll try “racism!” whether it’s racism or not. Again, this is due to some blacks’ extreme insecurity vis-a-vis the white world they find themselves in. It’s like James Baldwin says: “History is a nightmare from which a black man cannot wake up”–the history of white superiority and black inferiority (slavery, economics, etc.).
The same situation applies here: a lot of Chinese people feel incredibly inferior to Westerners, and they try to cover this up with loud denunciations of any criticism of China from the West. So when Public Servant or some other guy cries “Racism!” I automatically think of blacks in America. This is not a racism but a reflection of reality: in their overheated anger at Chinabounder, the Chinese are 100% like the blacks.
You’ve only see a few posts from me on an online blog and you already feel you can judge me? Can you not tell what’s wrong and right? Do you not think the Chinese people are not entitled to have feelings and it is impossible for them to be the victim of racism? Do you really believe there is no such thing as racism against China or the Chinese people from the west?
Why is it you prefer to give the benefit of the doubt to people whose behaviours indicate that they are likely to be racists? Do you think people like to be the victim of racism and that’s why they make it up most of the time?
So you are saying racism is not a reality but only some imagination of some inferior people, in this case, the chinese?
Overheated anger? Who are you to judge the Chinese? Who are you to pass judgment on African Americans? What makes you think you have the right to decide how they should feel? You think insulting the Chinese is the only way to make them listen your “reason”?
I’ve been coming to this blog for a while and I’ve found most of your posts pointless. You seem to have been trying very hard to impress people here that you are cool or confident or whatever. You even call yourself “big sausage” for obvious reasons that I don’t have to say. Honestly, the harder you try to put other people down to make yourself feel superior, the more insecure and shallow you look. Maybe you like to think that you are a “big sausage”, but I think you are just a “small banana”, i.e. Xiao Xiang Chang.
Sam,
No. I think a big part of the problem with this whole “debate” is that people think words like “truth” even apply.
Anyway, a few good points were made, but the fun is over now.